CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: toad on August 17, 2014, 02:45:40 PM
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This apparently is with the car I'm about to buy. For the most part I am not too concerned, except as to know the integrity of the current Vendor. I have posted some pictures of the car and have taken extensive time to research all of my information. It is truly a survivor. However according to what I've read so far as to the rarity of these documents with a Norwood built Camaro I'm sceptical.
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Pics of broadcast sheet, pad, tag, and VIN removed per owner's request. - Kurt
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I can't comment on the codes, but my first impression is the exceptional condition of the paper and hues for being 46 years old.
I re-read your thread thinking is this was a reproduction document but I see now this is supposed to be a real one.
Mike
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Body and chassis broadcast copies often remained in completed cars shipped from the plant. They were usually discarded during new car prep. However a few dealers put them in the glove box or in the folder of paperwork retained by the dealer. That may be what occurred here as yours looks genuine.
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Hi William,
What concerns me is though it may have been put in a secure place, oxidation from air will still take place.
My '67's UOIT was found under the carpet so it was spared handling damage, but it still turned yellow from the air exposure.
Just an observation.
Mike
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where was it located when found by the other owner? Glove box? or somewhere else? Hw long has it been in a binder, vs. under a carpet?
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I have one for a '69 Camaro and it looks like new. Also have other paperwork from the same dealer.
Last fall I saw an original Gutenberg bible, 558 years old. Probably wasn't always well stored but still looked pretty good. Kept dry and indoors, paper does just fine.
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Ok same question, where was yours found on the car and how long had it been there before being emoted and preserved elsewhere?
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When I seen it it was in a plastic sleeve in a binder. Don't know for how long but the original owner pictures of her and the car from 1971 when in the same binder with dates on the Polaroids as well bill of sale from Nickey Chevrolet
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very cool. I would suspect that is why it is in such great condition now. The car looks like a great find. Was it local find for you or how did you come across it?
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Yes and I have looked at a few others in the past couple of years within a couple of hours from me. This one by far is in the most original condition with all of it's born with parts. It's a rolling museum really if I purchase the car I'll post all of the details. Out of curiosity, what do you all think it might be worth? Thnx
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Another thing if this is the body broadcast, there's a very real possibility that the Chassis broadcast is still above the gas tank, correct?
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The sheets above the gas tank have been found only on Los Angeles built cars. This car was built in Norwood Ohio.
Do you have the casting dates on the block and the heads? Reason I ask is, my 07C car has a VIN number 275 after this car and has an engine build date of 06-19. Your car has an engine build date of 07-10. Curious to see if the casting dates match up with the build date.
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Another thing if this is the body broadcast, there's a very real possibility that the Chassis broadcast is still above the gas tank, correct?
Norwood car? Doubtful.
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Hmmm - DF ralleys with a Y55 battery, E70-15 tires. Looks interesting -
Regards -
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Toad is the Zone #11 and Dealer # 108 ? on NCRS it shows Zone 11, Dealer 411 for Nickey.
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Maybe it was traded after the fact. Or while it was in production.
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Toad is the Zone #11 and Dealer # 108 ? on NCRS it shows Zone 11, Dealer 411 for Nickey.
I noticed that also...originally ordered by a dealer in Elmhurst, Ill.
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Ok may be a little confusing but the car was sold second at Nickey Chevrolet as per the documents I seen, there is a Pop with the car as well but for a second owner, it does not have the drive train info on the plate, just Women's name and address.I will post some more pictures.
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The engine vin is 472189
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Ok here's a picture of the casting date of the block, it was very hard to get this so it is a bit blurry.
Thnx
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toad if you are a mac user you can take a screen shot and resize it to upload. It might help, it might not. just a suggestion.
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Thank you I am. I should probably post the pics as a link but I don't own the car yet so I'm just keeping it in this site. Thnx Bullitt
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Are you still apprehensive about the car? What if I may ask is holding you back? ( I assume it is a fair asking price and you have the amount)
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Were very close to making a deal so i'm very nervous right now. It is alot of money for me but I do know what these cars are worth. thnx for consideration
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Toad....if you need some help on the numbers on this car you need to share the full VIN number on the dash, the partial on the engine, the partial hidden VIN numbers, the serial number on the broadcast sheet, and the full trim tag also. The engine number you shared earlier (472189) is 3310 prior to the Vin number on my 07C car.
Here is the information you have shared up to now,
engine block cast date F28 - I think that's what it looked like
engine assembly date 07-10
engine VIN 472189
car assembly date 07C
Here is how it compares to my 07C Z28
engine block cast date F138
engine assembly date 06-19
engine VIN 475499 - This is the same as the dash VIN and the partial hidden VINs on my car
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That seems pretty far off being built the same week? Unless there was a odd month where all the cars that month were dated 7C. Jerry please enlighten me on how the numbers of his car could still be possible with his having the same build week. thanks
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Well....I know that my car was completed and shipped on a Monday after the third week, so that would probably place it as starting assembly later in the third week. The other car might have been started on a Monday so that would leave several days between the cars. Presuming they made 912 cars per day, there could be more that 3000 VINs different between the two. Now the engine cast dates being close, but the assembly dates so far apart baffles me......especially since his car was made before mine but his engine was made 20 days after mine. Now that one is going to take some thinking. The only thing I can see is if a later batch of engines were placed in the que before some older ones at the assembly plant.....his got the later engine and mine got the older engine.
That's what I can imagine without knowing exactly how the assembly process played out. Maybe someone else might chime in and have some better idea.
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Maybe it was traded after the fact. Or while it was in production.
Had a thought.....we know that the rear stripes are wrong so it was repainted at one time. It could have been in a rear end accident and got repainted that way. We also know that it was traded or sold before the warranty expired because the original dealer was not Nickey and Toad said that Nickey Chevrolet reissued the POP in the second owners name. Per normal procedure, when a car was sold with warranty remaining, the dealer reissued the POP in the new owners name but none of the factory information was included on the POP....just the name and address only. Toad did state that the POP with the car was in that condition.
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thanks for the insight on production probables.
Toad FYI as far as worth. One way to figure it out is what is it worth to you if it is all numbers matching. And then what is it's current market value, which is what you are referring to. They did not make as many 68 Z cars as 69, but they still seem to go for a little less in the market place. For the average 68 Z that is numbers matching I would say 35k to 50k, would be a good range, originality or cowl induction, rare color (corvette bronze) would account for the higher prices. This would be a basic idea for you. others may have a different evaluation ...
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Thanks everyone for your input, all of you have been helpful. My gut instinct is telling me at $45K It's a fair but "edgy" investment. Factor in the pure Love of raw originality and the sound of an all original 302ci, and I'd have to lean on the purchase. In Fifteen to Twenty years, I'm gambling that I will at least have a Savings account on the price and maybe just maybe an investment.
Thnx
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I think one point that needs more investigation, would be the rear stripes and that the car was possibly hit from behind and had a slight repaint in the rear. have you looked under the car and close up inside the trunk?
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Yes definitely an older accident but no extensive damage. The hood is definitely a replacement from the 70's.
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For investment purposes, the 1968 Z28 is one of the hardest vehicles to validate. You must have good verifiable documents in order to sell the vehicle when you get ready to cash in on your investment. So please, right now before you invest, take the facts you have discovered about this car and hire you a reputable, independent, first generation Camaro appraiser. Or at least talk to Jerry MacNeish at:
Camaro Hi Performance
410-781-0418
http://z28camaro.com/wp/
Get his opinion about this car!
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I also think what Jerry is suggesting would be a good idea in this case...
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The car is certified by Jerry, he has a document signed, but based on the limited option list for this Vehicle and the odd color combination,no gauge package ,I do think the high thirty's maybe forty would be a more reasonable price.
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Toad...call Jerry and ask him what was right and what was wrong about the car. When Jerry appraises a car he does a very detailed assessment that is usually several pages long. Most people will not show you the details of the appraisal because they don't want to show you what he found wrong with the car....they just show you the signed document that he states the car is a Z28. He may relate additional facts about the car than has been discussed previously. The more you can find out about this car the better off you will be later. Call Jerry M. to get the facts.
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Good advice Gerry, I have decided to back out of the deal not because I don't think the car is a well documented true 68' Z, but due to it's limited option list and color combination makes it, a 35 to 38 K vehicle a based on all of the input so far. I think at 45K a un restored true survivor in this condition, would have to be something with a few more options. What do you think?
Toad
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I would say there is not that many unrestored cars out there. first gen z/28 cars got used and abused by most, and finding a true matching numbers car is a find these days. You can put the sale on hold while you look at other cars, as long as you won't regret it if it sells to someone else. When i bought my car I wasn't going after a car with all the options. I wanted a unrestored Garnet Red (no vinyl top) Z/28. My car is late build (08C) car so it does have a tach, and the D80 spoiler package as dictated as standard equipment at that time of the year when it was sold. The owner did order it with a cowl hood, but other than tinted glass and a AM radio, it doesn't have many other options to speak of. No console, RS package, power steering, or X33. Which is fine with me, because it reminds me more of a strip special car, just the basics. So buy the car you want would be my advice, not the one you think others will want in the future.
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So buy the car you want would be my advice, not the one you think others will want in the future.
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x2; It's only going to get tougher to fiind "real" ones as more time passes.
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Thanks well I left the ball in his court by staying at $42,000, not likely will he go for this. He knows what it's worth. I may have regretted already backing out of this deal but if it was meant to be......
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I think having Jerry look at it or another Camaro expert would insure you are getting the real deal, a couple thousand is small potatoes compared to buying a fake Z, then your talking more like a 30 k swing
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Car was hit in the 1/4 in 70.
Options don't mean a lot when it comes to originality, IMO.
124378N472189
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I agree options don't mean a lot when the car is a Special High Perf.
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Hi everyone I have been negotiating with the Vendor on a price and am very close. Here are some more pictures. Looking forward to some feedback
Thnx
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Here's a pic of tag
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I have one for a '69 Camaro and it looks like new. Also have other paperwork from the same dealer.
Last fall I saw an original Gutenberg bible, 558 years old. Probably wasn't always well stored but still looked pretty good. Kept dry and indoors, paper does just fine.
The yellowing comes more from UV light or contact with other oxidizers, between carpet and underlayment is not anywhere close to as archival as a folder out of the sun.
Particularly acids either in the carpet or from rust etc?
I have a build sheet which was so black from the asphalt underlayment it was not legible, I used a 9x13 pyrex and fast lacquer thinner laying it on papertowels and puring the laquer thinner through the sheet, it is nearly back to original coloring and perfectly legible.
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thats pretty incredible, and very ingenious on your part.
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Yes impressive. In general what do you gentlemen think in terms of authenticity of what has been shown so far of the car?
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Never mind after more research I answered my own question.
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Toad sent me a PM, but I can't respond since he shut down his account....