CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Gramps69Z on September 10, 2006, 05:44:20 PM
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I put my car in a local show this weekend. I got beat by a 67 SS that had these modifications that I saw.
1. Front and rear spoilers
2. ZL-2 hood
3. 15 inch wheels
4. 327 emblems on the fenders
5. Extensive chromed out engine, and engine compartment.
6. Manual 4 wheel drum brakes
One of the judges was a female high school student that was asked what she was looking for and she stated she didn't know.
My question is should I have been upset, and would you consider the 67 modified?
Fireman John
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Yes Modified... but the brakes could have come like that from the factory
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Not worth getting upset at a local show...
Modified --yes; or even worst, imporperly restored.
At a local show (or any show), you need to know what the judging standards are. Which organization sets the standards? Some give feedback, some don't! What are the categories of judging? Who decides which category? The worst thing in the world is to put your car in a show where the standards don't match what you have tried to do with the car. Sounds like that's what happened to you.
Although in this case, it was probably folks who like "old cars" and they "liked" the other car more than yours. By most anyone's standards that's not judging... It's just a good afternoon... And that's not worth being upset...
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Judging at local shows, in my opinion, is almost always a joke - geared to what someone thinks looks good as opposed to what is correct. A very correct base car will rarely judge well against a highly (but incorrectly) restored SS, BB or Z28. The over and incorrectly restored "muscle" overwhelms any sense of correctly judging the cars for what they are.
That being said, I've also been to some shows where the judging was supposed to be "knowledgeable" but at the end of the day, the same still seems to hold true - a non SS, BB, Z28 will loose every time, regardless of how correct or original the car is.
. . . . and I couldn't agree more with Phillip - not worth getting upset over.
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definitely not worth getting upset over - most of our local shows are a joke when it comes to stds (there aren't any) you pick your own catagory and the other participants judge you. The only one that i'd been to that had a regional board put out this - * Original Restored Classes may have a maximum of three modifications: 1. Wheels & Tires. 2. Non-OEM paint or color (no custom metal-flake paint, stripes or flames). 3. Cosmetic Engine Dress-Up: All Judged Cars must have OEM body parts or exact reproduction Aftermarket Parts for their Year. Aftermarket Sound systems must be located in original factory location. ** Modified Classes will have more than the three modifications allowed in the Original/Restored Classes. I just go for the fun of it - usually the FOE or VFW shows cause the bar's open at 11am :)
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Was she at least cute ::)
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Been through this.
If you are a member here you are probably know your camaro back and forth.You know whats right on it and what isnt. Its probably very correct since you are here.Only most people dont have a clue.
I have read every piece of info I can about 69 Z/28s, and I know that most Zs didnt have the ducted hood factory.Most people believe all Zs had the hood, the spoilers,trim etc.We all know they didnt.Do the Zs look bettter with all the goodies? You know they do.A dressed up fake Z will out score a true stripper X77 Z if they were restored the same way at a local show.
Ata local show," pretty, pretty" beats a correctly restored one.Heck about 9 years ago the President of a car club saw the 302 emblem on my hood and asked if I had a ford engine in the car.HE WAS SERIOUS.He didnt know any better.
I entered in factory muscle class and came in last,Im not bragging but my car was far superior.When I asked what the deal was they said " small blocks cannot be muscle cars, and the only true muscle cars are the big block Chryslers". I got pissed and Never went back to that show.I got over it and I had many good years telling people what an Idiot the guy is.
Just remember,any idiot can start a car club and have a show.Any organization can have show and have idiot judges.Some people really believe that a good car is one that was built out of a JC whitney calalog.When I used to show, I found out quickly which clubs and organizations know there stuff and who to avoid.
If you dont want to get pissed, never enter a contestant judged one,thats a really bad deal,trust me.
I can tell you this though,I really only know Camaros and chevy stuff.A bogus ford or chrysler or any thing else could fool me.
Basically,dont get upset, just avoid the bad shows and enjoy the good ones.In a couple of years you will get burned out on shows,you will have a room full of trophys you really dont care about. And when someone talks you into going to a show you will want to leave in an hour because you are so bored, but you still have 4 more to go.
My experience and my opinion,Chris
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If you want to win, paint it red (or some other wild color), make sure it has spoilers, put a big stereo system in it, make sure it is dressed in SS and/or Z/28 clothes, and put the biggest motor you can find in it. That's it. Really quite simple.
No one wants to see a correct 1st gen camaro. Sorry. ("No one" = judges & majority of fan base). Bring your car so that the 2% of the public that recognizes it for what it is. Make some visual aids -- for instance, what a cowl body tag is and why that's important. Why the SS-327 across the aisle is an abomination. Etc. Then, leave before the awards are handed out, 'cause you aint gettin' one.
Here's the order of preference:
1) Rodded out, tubbed, and chopped. Camaro body with less than 1% original parts. Most combos impossible. No effort to restore anything (e.g., leather front seats, 20" aluminum wheels). Basically the Foose approach to car building.
2) Sort of the poor-man's version of #1. Less flashy upgrades, but probably still features some sort of modern interior -- instrument panels, seats from 1980+ car, etc. Probably tubbed to fit very wide tires and might be on slicks. Probably a 454 or 502 motor with lots of chrome detailing. Paint is red or some wild scheme. May have remnants of Camaros -- Z/28 stripes or SS nose stripe. Some sort of cowl hood, of course.
3) "Clone." Note that this is in quotes. To be a real clone, the car had to exist -- the thing sitting in front of you must represent something that at one time existed. In fact, most "clones" are not, in fact, clones of anything. If anything, these are concept cars or idealisms of what the creator wished had existed in 1967-9. So, we're talking about some random motor again -- 383 is a popular choice. Probably dressed up and maybe with multiple carbs. Paint is probably a normal color (primaries), but not representative anything factory. Interior is probably half-and-half. Maybe some factory seats with an Autometer gauge panel, for example. It's hodgepodge -- some stuff from deluxe interior + some stuff from standard interior + some stuff totally custom. Wheels and tires could be anything from 14" ralley to 22" aluminum, but won't be representative of factory. The best you can hope for is "period correct" with the ralley or maybe some Cragars.
4) Clone. This is pretty close to accurate. Nice cars. People who took a 6 and built it into a SS-396 with the right accompanyments. These cars are cool because, even when being true to what was available at the time, you can build a monster. 1967 SS-396 convertible, deluxe interior, disc brakes + 15" rally wheels, RS package, deluxe exterior, deluxe seatbelts, etc.
5) Original. With few exceptions, the original just isn't as nice as the "original on steroids." No tri-power carbs. No shiny Edelbrock components. No paint jobs that pop. Impressive cars, for sure, but not the car you'll remember later that evening when you're having dinner ... or when filling out a judging card.
Now (1) is usually a work of art. I don't like those styles of cars, but I can at least appreciate the art that went into building it. The cars in the (2) category are iffy for me. I don't like strip cars and these usually just look like wanna-be type cars. Usually it's just a huge blown motor + fancy paint. However, I'm definitely in the minority, because lots and lots of people prefer this look.
(3) is the real abomination. It violates every standard of decency because of the presentation. At least categories (1) and (2) are honest about what they are: some modern supercar built on the 1st gen platform. But this one is the one that makes us all want to scream. These are much cheaper to build, especially for the backyard mechanic who's good at building motors or painting autos. However, this makes the cars more "accessable." Few of us can drop $100K or more into a supercamaro or blown street racer. However, many (read: judges) can more easily see a base car with a crate motor, fresh paint, some interior upgrades, and "correct" stylings such as the z/28 badges on the 1967 car.
There will always be a bunch of (3) at the show and in varying levels of execution. Outside of the masterpieces, these are the ones taking home the awards. Count on it.
(2)s can also be annoying. The same way that pretty models get to stay fit because instead of going to work every day, they spend 4 hours in the gym working out. They get to be more beautiful than the rest because they don't follow the same rules. And, hey, don't like your nose? Then get some surgery and make it prettier. Don't like your headlights? Then, get some auto-surgery and become an RS. Still, at least these people are following the basic laws.
That leaves (1). This is the only category that has limited potential. Doesn't matter how good you're car would look with a candy-apple red paint job, once you cross that line, you've vaulted into category (3). Unless you have some freak of a car (COPO, Yenko, RS/SS 396 convert, etc.), you're car is just going to pale in comparison to any number of like cars from the above categories.
Good luck.
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John,
It was good to be parked next to your real Z-28 at the last two car shows. I agree with the common thread above. We go to our local shows and pay our $25 and up for registration in hopes of taking home a $10.00 trophy...only to be outjudged to a clone...kind of ironic huh. You have the nicest real 69 Z I have seen. I am going to keep my regular breed 327 2bbl Camaro original and it will stay that way. I'll just keep going to go to the shows to meet other owners and revel in the Camaro camaraderie. On a side note, it's interesting to search the web auctions and other sites for 69s for sale to see so few original regular breeds as apparently most are being turned in to Z-28 and COPO clones...therefore mine must be getting rarer by the day.
cheers, Greg
cheers, Greg
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Car shows..... I have a real 69 Z/28, and every car show I've been to seems always have an "original" 69 COPO 427 or a pace car.
They'll win every time over a measly 69 Z. Having been around in 69, I know how unusual Z's were to see. You'd seem them from time to time, but they were rare enough that you usually would remember them. I don't know if I ever saw a 67 Z back then; With a total production of 600 something, it isn't likely. I do remember seeing one 69 Firebird Trans Am when it was new back in 69 (production 600 something); it was white/blue with spoilers and fender flares, etc. I have never seen another one since, even at car shows. Yet it seems every car show these days has COPO's, Yenko's, ZL-1's etc. How'd that happen?
Jimmy V.
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This is a pic of my 71 SS 454 chevelle engine compartment,I was beat at a local car show by a car with rusty chrome valve covers and regular hose clamps and a big msd ignition coil screwed to the firewall. So dont feel bad,sometimes its not worth bringing your car out to a half assed judged car show.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l188/Budbrewer1/P4160003.jpg)
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This is a pic of my 69Z engine compartment and I didnt even place at the camaro gathering in Vinland NJ,The yenko with a puddle of oil on his intake manifold got first place!
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l188/Budbrewer1/P1050017.jpg)
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69RSZ,
Nice looking engine. It's a winner in my book.
Jimmy V.
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Greg, thank you for your kindness. I think it's ironic that we got beat again by the improperly restored 67 SS.
I guess it helps if you bring your wannabe "restored" classic car to a show, and help judge.
I think the next show, there's gonna be a protest.
Fireman John ;D
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....and you guys have the muscle - imagine my dilema - nickely restored base 327 - my poor ride hasn't got a chance
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Hey 71 Chevelle... your Cowl induction seal is on upside down...
It took me a while to figure it out as well...
Lay the ring on your lap... up side down.... then set the seal on the ring and roll the seal over to the topside... the L in the seal will go into the lip of the cowl ind ring.
You will have to hold one side with an elbow or knee until you get it worked on enough where the tension across the seal will hold it in place.
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ya know i have been wondering about that LOL but some people have problems with the hood pushing up.I will turn it around Thanks!.And that 327 cars engine compartment looks great,being stock and trying to put it back the way the factory did it is harder than hot rodding an engine with all chrome stuff.hats off to ya for putting it back stock! ;D
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This is a pic of my 69Z engine compartment and I didnt even place at the camaro gathering in Vinland NJ,The yenko with a puddle of oil on his intake manifold got first place!
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l188/Budbrewer1/P1050017.jpg)
NICE car my man! 8)
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If you want to win, paint it red (or some other wild color), make sure it has spoilers, put a big stereo system in it, make sure it is dressed in SS and/or Z/28 clothes, and put the biggest motor you can find in it. That's it. Really quite simple.
No one wants to see a correct 1st gen camaro. Sorry. ("No one" = judges & majority of fan base). Bring your car so that the 2% of the public that recognizes it for what it is. Make some visual aids -- for instance, what a cowl body tag is and why that's important. Why the SS-327 across the aisle is an abomination. Etc. Then, leave before the awards are handed out, 'cause you aint gettin' one.
Aint that the truth...
Local shows always prefer the "pretty one". ::)
You should know that going in - unless they are judging for originallity.
The hot rods always do better.
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... unless they are judging for originallity.
The hot rods always do better.
Nope, sorry. Judges don't know what "original" is. Even if they are trying to give an award to a "stock" car, the candy-apple red 67 RS-SS 396 with a cowl hood, front/rear spoilers, and deluxe interior complete with "factory" AC is going to win. As long as it has period correct dressing. So, your correct SS-350 or Z/28 still isn't getting an award.
If you're in a situation where the judges are competent enough to really know the Camaro, then it's probably a pretty big and/or prestigious show. In that case, there probably will be some actual/documented rare COPOs, supercars, and other monsters ... and your SS-350 or Z/28 still isn't getting an award.
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Whoa... wait a minute... Some judges do... and it depends on the judging standards. There are some groups that judge the car more against itself than the other cars. There are some categories where the COPO is not in the same group as the SS-350.
Like I said before:
At a local show (or any show), you need to know what the judging standards are. Which organization sets the standards? Some give feedback, some don't! What are the categories of judging? Who decides which category? The worst thing in the world is to put your car in a show where the standards don't match what you have tried to do with the car.
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DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THE BRIGHTER MODERN HEADLIGHTS FOR 67 CAMARO'S? WHAT THEY ARE, AND WHERE YOU CAN GET THEM?
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Yes, they are called Halogens - you can get them at Pep Boys. ;)
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Yes, they are called Halogens - you can get them at Pep Boys. ;)
Now that was funny
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I learned many years ago that when attending local shows, it's best just to go and have a good time and make new friends. Doing that will also help you learn what they are looking for. But again, it's not worth worring about. Just enjoy the show.
If you attend a national event like the Camaro Nationals, there are many more classes to choose from, and that helps you get your car in the right class.
Jerry
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Local car shows are just that.....a local car show....
I agree...go to the show and have some fun and meet new people........personally I get a laugh at the awards...to see who get pissed.....
Long ago, I got screwed at one of the local shows here in Maryland...got mad.....and finally laughed at the whole scenario....
The only true judging gauge of your car should be done by folks who know Camaros...like at the Nationals in Carlisle.
Besides that....everything else is BS....
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This is all interesting and a pertinent topic for me. I spent four years restoring my ’69 RS Z28 back to as original as possible. We all love and know our 1st Gen Camaros very well. I often was disappointed if I did not score awards at some local shows but I now just have fun being at the show! I have come to realize that a so so day at show in the nice, warm and sunny weather is still better that a good day at work!!!
I don't know why I bother taking my collapsible lawn chair to shows because I hardly use it! It’s too much fun checking out all the other cars and "talking cars" with the owners. I really get a kick talking with owners, who either still have the car they dated in, or had in high school, or found another car just like the one they had many, many years ago. These people have great stories and share a common bond for our hobby! I also love to see and photo document the survivor cars that I find at shows, dirty or otherwise, and THEY never win at the local shows.
It’s true that certain colors and custom mods catch the judges’ eyes at local shows. These cars often catch mine eye also. As many of you have pointed out, many/most judges at local shows don't know our "hard-core" restored cars as well as we do, or what it takes to get our cars to be near perfect 1000 point cars. The show for those of us seeking this kind of judging, where the judging score sheets really count, are the Camaro National events with judges who do know our cars, and what it takes to restore a 1st Gen correctly. Not all national shows are perfect; judges do make mistakes and politics do play a part in decisions; however, these are the shows where everything from our ZL1's to base model L6 Camaros all stand out, and are judged on their own merit instead of against each other.
I scored a Gold Award (973 out of 1000 points) back in 2000 at the Camaro Nat's in Columbus, Ohio. I have made many improvements and corrections since then and hope to get my car judged again the next time when a Camaro National show is back in the Mid-West. Show plaques and trophies do boost my pride but it’s my Gold Award that I most proud of. Personally, I would rather have my one Gold Award than a dozen local show awards. With a several year old restoration, I now compete against many other very nice 69’s that are either fresh restorations or never driven. I DRIVE mine to local shows so my fun factor is just that much higher.
Keep the faith and try to enjoy those sunny days with all the other “car crazy” people (borrowing Mr. Barry Meguiar’s words, of the Meguiar’s Automotive Wax products fame) at our local shows and events.
Let see, ….. It’s February and only about 2 – 3 more months in Indiana before the car show season starts again…..and I can hardly wait to fire up that solid lifter 302!!!
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One thing I will comment on is the feedback that we've received at the Camaro Natiionals in Carlisle, PA. Over the past few years, there has been very little, if any at all negative feedback about this event. There is a class for everyone and if you have any questions, there is always someone there to answer. Many people have told me that they feel very much at home during these events. Just nice to know that you can put together a great Camaro show and keep most of the people attending happy. Not an easy task in today's world. There were always problems and complaints years ago at the USCC events. I'm glad we are through those times.
Jerry
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Here are some of the pictures from a local show here this weekend.
Jay Leno supported the event at the Boca Raton Resort and CC
We didn't win anything - did not expect to.
Pretty fancy event - they gave us lots of goodies. :D
Very fun
click here--->Boca Car Show (http://www.broachbuster.com/id23.htm)
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I still say you need to know what the standards are before you enter... or yes, just go and have fun!
Jeff,
Like your Vette! They didn't want your pace car???
Jerry,
Amen. Making people feel "at home" is very important! It's equally important that no one come away feeling "beat up" from the judging.
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I agree with most of everything I read in this post. Unless I missed, at local shows chrome chrome and more chrome always wins. Knowing what you are being judeged for ahead of time will help you know what to expect.
You know the caliber of the show when you go back every year or after missing a show for several years and you back and the same judges are still there.
But the best advise is don't get upset just let it go.
I appreciate all of the kind words said about the Camaro Nartionals at Carlisle. It doesn't happen often but we have had mistakes. What I take pride in is that we do out best to correct them even months after the show. To the point to going to someones trailer that had been judged the day before and re-looking at the car and correcting an over sight.
Hope to see everyone in June at the Nationals in Carlisle.
Bud Scolastico
American Camaro Association
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I usually pay the price of admission and put display only on the windshield of my 69 SS 396. In my mind parking lot or Sonic style car shows are for socializing and nothing more.
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Simply solution, don't show it!!! I stopped years ago. You can attend just don't get judged, lot more fun to talk to people and hang out.
Whitecoupe
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I usually pay the price of admission and put display only on the windshield of my 69 SS 396. In my mind parking lot or Sonic style car shows are for socializing and nothing more.
Interesting, you do realize this thread is over 5 years old??????