CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: 69Z28 on November 09, 2013, 11:21:03 PM
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Hi guys, need some help, anybody have a stock factory style exhaust system using the factory exhaust manifolds still on their car?..Z28 or SS350 might or might not matter, but I'm gonna assume it doesn't. I need a pic of the heat valve and it's orientation/clocking on the passenger side manifold.
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This is the best I have on hand, you can see the peg that the spring mounts to. Hopefully you gather enough from this to install yours. (The manifolds have never been off of the motor.)
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Here's my '69Z.
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Both of those pics show me that this valve is different on both cars, or is it the way it's clocked? The valve I have, if installed, will actually be 180 out from Johns valve. If I install it with the flat gasket side facing the manifold outlet, which should be up, I think, then it definately will be opposite of Johns. Bullitts pic, from what little info is showing, leads me to believe that the valve I have is all wrong.
Here is a pic of what I have and you can see the difference. Doesn't even look close to me.
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Hey Gary, let me start off by saying my exhaust system was replaced at one point so someone could have rotated my valve. But looking at your picture if you flip it over and look at John Z pic you would have it in the same position as his. For my car if you flipped it over and then turned it a 1/3 of a turn clockwise it would be how mine is installed.
So from what I see John and I have it facing the other way and John has the weight down, you rotate it 1/3 clockwise, and the weight would be up, like mine is (you just can't see it in the photo sorry). If you look at the peg that the spring is retained by in my pics you may see what I am saying.
There might be someone on the CRG that has a V-8 Camaro with the original pipes and valve still installed on there car that may give us more insight. Maybe one of those original small block pace car guys could post a pic?
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I didn't have a valve before I bought the one in my pic. The seller said it came from a 70 Corvette, but I have no clue really. Are these valves made different from model to model and/or from Rams horn manifolds to log type manifolds? I just bought another valve which says it is number 3746844 and not even sure it is correct. Here's a link to the one I just bought. I still don't think I'll have the correct one to install.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-chevy-exhaust-small-block-heat-riser-3746844-with-diamond-up-engraved-/310785661240?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&nma=true&si=vRtriaDfWUccNfL9O0OoOVL9V3A%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
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In Post 3, the side shown mates with the manifold via a gasket.
The bevel side underneath, mates with the exhaust pipe donut.
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In Post 3, the side shown mates with the manifold via a gasket.
The bevel side underneath, mates with the exhaust pipe donut.
Yes that is correct but what I can't 'SEEM' to wrap around my head is if what I have is correct or not. The survivor 69 Impala I have has the same valve in my pic, post #3, with Rams horn manifolds, which appears to be different then the valve in Johns pic. The weight on mine as installed will be on the left as Johns is on the right. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is does it matter how it's clocked and a proper installation for 69 Z and/or small blocks? I think what we need are pics of original installations as stated by Bullitt to verify what is correct. I don't know what is correct.
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Hey Gary, let me start off by saying my exhaust system was replaced at one point so someone could have rotated my valve. But looking at your picture if you flip it over and look at John Z pic you would have it in the same position as his. For my car if you flipped it over and then turned it a 1/3 of a turn clockwise it would be how mine is installed.
So from what I see John and I have it facing the other way and John has the weight down, you rotate it 1/3 clockwise, and the weight would be up, like mine is (you just can't see it in the photo sorry). If you look at the peg that the spring is retained by in my pics you may see what I am saying.
There might be someone on the CRG that has a V-8 Camaro with the original pipes and valve still installed on there car that may give us more insight. Maybe one of those original small block pace car guys could post a pic?
But you can't flip it over, that puts the flange/donut side facing up which isn't correct. If I install mine as it is shown in this pic here then the lever will be facing the rad support/front of car compared to what Johns pic shows facing the fender well. No matter how I orient this particular valve it will never be correct based on yours and Johns pic. Looking at my pic the wire spring will be up, I bet yours and Johns is underneath and cannot be clearly seen. I'm still thinking I have the wrong valve not to mention the one I just bought will be wrong too. How many variations can there be. Geeze.
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Here's the flange side of the one I just bought. Number on the lever is 3746844. Is this even a good number for the 69 small block? You can clearly see it's the same if you flip it flange side down. I have seen this number too, 7752901, but don't know much about it. One forum I found that on says correct for 69 Z28 but heck IDK.
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I'm thinking if you install it with the Flange side up, it will not open properly.
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If you installed it just as it is pictured it would be in the same position as mine. Here is another pic
( again sorry that it cut off a bit, when I took the pic it was of the whole side of the motor)
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The heat valve isn't reversible so it won't work that way, the donut gasket/ flange side faces down towards the ground so it seals the head pipe to the heat valve. The flat side mates to the manifold outlet and has a flat gasket to seal any leaks at that connection. Can't seem to find any pics or maybe a diagram showing how this is set up in general terms. Went thru the 69 A.I.M. and haven't seen anything there either. Every body must be using headers on there cars. I would have thought there would be more replies. Anybody else have something to verify correctness?
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Well I am a little confused. Are the to valves you posted the same part or are they different? they both look like they have a bevel in each picture.
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Yes, this is confusing, and both valves are identical. My reply #3 and #8 show the valve flat side up on the one sitting on my desk and the heat valve in my reply #9 is flange side up and is the valve I just bought and haven't received yet, and for what it's worth is identical to the one I already have. Without anything to go by it's going to be hard to verify if what I have is even a correct heat valve for the 69 Small block. Nothing to go by if there is no other participation from other members. Just need a good clear pic of this heat valve and it's orientation. I think what I have may be for the Rams Horn style exhaust manifolds like what's on my 69 350 Impala. IDK.
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Does the big block and the small block share the same heat valve? I wonder if I have one for a BB. Huh!?
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One '68 327 I had, had the weight parallel to pass frame rail with counterweight to the front.
I would think the valve would be universal fit as it would match manifold ID.
A '64 Impala 327-300HP, ram horn manifold had the weight to the rear of manifold.
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Gary, my 69 is still running hooker headers, but I just looked at my exhaust manifolds for the 70 Z project. I cut off what was left of the original exhaust. My heat riser has the weight to the outside, parallel with the frame rail. Being 57, I can't post pictures. I can email them to you.
Buddy
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Gary, my 69 is still running hooker headers, but I just looked at my exhaust manifolds for the 70 Z project. I cut off what was left of the original exhaust. My heat riser has the weight to the outside, parallel with the frame rail. Being 57, I can't post pictures. I can email them to you.
Buddy
I sent it to you in the PM you sent Buddy. Can we assume the 70's were the same?
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One '68 327 I had, had the weight parallel to pass frame rail with counterweight to the front.
I would think the valve would be universal fit as it would match manifold ID.
A '64 Impala 327-300HP, ram horn manifold had the weight to the rear of manifold.
Hey Everett like what's in this pic. LM1 350/255 69 Impala. The one I have in hand and the one I'll be be getting in a few days are exactly like what's in my 69 Impala in this pic.
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OK. Just got the other one in today. Same as the one I already have. Still think both are wrong for the 69 Camaro Z28. Anybody else have a known good heat riser valve for a 69 Z28?
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Gary there is a NOS one in the box for Z- 28 part number 3887023 on ebay # 190688527946. Very $$$$
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Compared to this pic the 2 I have are wrong then. Unless other members show a clear view of an original I guess we'll never really know. Can anyone confirm what is correct? So far JohnZ has the best overall view that would be the same as the pic. $240.00...that's a load of change. I paid $5.00 a piece for the ones I have. I'll just keep digging. The right one is bound to pop up.
Anybody have any idea what the cast # 3746844 heat riser goes to?
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that NOS one appears to be the same configuration/appearance as the one on JohnZ's car..
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Gary, I have my original 69 Z manifolds on a shelf in my basement. The heat riser is with them. I can take a pics if you want, and forward to you.
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Anything at this point will do. I need to figure out what others have so I can determine if I need to keep looking for the right heat riser of what I have is correct too.
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Gary, something happened to my camera. All pics are coming up blank! It looks like johns z's, but the weight is to the outside parallel to the frame rails
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Gary, something happened to my camera. All pics are coming up blank! It looks like johns z's, but the weight is to the outside parallel to the frame rails
That's OK. Is the block on the end of the lever pointing to the front of the car or the firewall? Something I have been wondering about is was the heat riser just installed in any position even at the plant? and was there different ones.
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According to my July 1969 issue of the 1967-1969 Camaro Master Parts catalog, the heat riser valve is the same part number for the 1967 thru 1969, 302ci, 327ci, and 350 ci engines and that part number is #3887023. I have my original 1968 Z28 heat riser valve in my hand and it looks identical to the NOS one shown above. I would take a picture of mine but being it looks identical, I see no reason for another picture.
BTW.....the 1969 AIM shows in the exact position as John Z's.
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So I wonder then what does the 3746844 go to?
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According to my July 1969 issue of the 1967-1969 Camaro Master Parts catalog, the heat riser valve is the same part number for the 1967 thru 1969, 302ci, 327ci, and 350 ci engines and that part number is #3887023. I have my original 1968 Z28 heat riser valve in my hand and it looks identical to the NOS one shown above. I would take a picture of mine but being it looks identical, I see no reason for another picture.
BTW.....the 1969 AIM shows in the exact position as John Z's.
I saw that in the AIM, and wonder if they were all assembled like that. I have found a couple pics of so called" original cars " where they were installed vertical or parallel to the frame rail.
As I said mine could have been turned by accident(?) when the new exhaust was installed, just seemed unlikely.
(here is a pic of a so called original)
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Ran a search on a 3746844 valve and came up with this web page.....http://www.fvstore.com/NOS-OEM-GM-HEAT-RISER-VALVE-3887034-CASTING-3746844/p19738.html (http://www.fvstore.com/NOS-OEM-GM-HEAT-RISER-VALVE-3887034-CASTING-3746844/p19738.html). You can then plug this #3887034 in the Query String box of this web site.....http://www.gmpartswiki.com/query (http://www.gmpartswiki.com/query) and then hit the search button and it will give you several instances of this part number applications.
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According to my July 1969 issue of the 1967-1969 Camaro Master Parts catalog, the heat riser valve is the same part number for the 1967 thru 1969, 302ci, 327ci, and 350 ci engines and that part number is #3887023. I have my original 1968 Z28 heat riser valve in my hand and it looks identical to the NOS one shown above. I would take a picture of mine but being it looks identical, I see no reason for another picture.
BTW.....the 1969 AIM shows in the exact position as John Z's.
I saw that in the AIM, and wonder if they were all assembled like that. I have found a couple pics of so called" original cars " where they were installed vertical or parallel to the frame rail.
As I said mine could have been turned by accident(?) when the new exhaust was installed, just seemed unlikely.
(here is a pic of a so called original)
Yours looks to be just turned and looks to be the same as JohnZ's.
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here is one more from an RS Z:
But I also have some original pics of some 69 Z cars with it mounted like John Z.
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Ran a search on a 3746844 valve and came up with this web page.....http://www.fvstore.com/NOS-OEM-GM-HEAT-RISER-VALVE-3887034-CASTING-3746844/p19738.html (http://www.fvstore.com/NOS-OEM-GM-HEAT-RISER-VALVE-3887034-CASTING-3746844/p19738.html). You can then plug this #3887034 in the Query String box of this web site.....http://www.gmpartswiki.com/query (http://www.gmpartswiki.com/query) and then hit the search button and it will give you several instances of this part number applications.
Found #3887034 is for BB and 3887023 is for SB. GM still carries them and I have seen them on line going from $50.00 to $150.00 at the GM parts houses. Reproductions are way cheaper though but who knows about quality.
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here is one more from an RS Z:
But I also have some original pics of some 69 Z cars with it mounted like John Z.
Can't tell in that pic but is the lever pointed to the firewall?
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the spring retainer pin is pointing at the frame rail, and the counter weight is parallel to the frame.
(Valve is in the same position as the first pic I put up, just different angle --> HEAD ON perspective instead of from the SIDE)
So I am not convinced there was only one way they were installed on the line, (yet)... :)
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the spring retainer pin is pointing at the frame rail, and the counter weight is parallel to the frame.
(Valve is in the same position as the first pic I put up, just different angle --> HEAD ON perspective instead of from the SIDE)
So I am not convinced there was only one way they were installed on the line, (yet)... :)
So the lever is probably pointing to the firewall and not the radiator, at least it looks like that from the pic.
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Yes, thats what I see as well.
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According to my July 1969 issue of the 1967-1969 Camaro Master Parts catalog, the heat riser valve is the same part number for the 1967 thru 1969, 302ci, 327ci, and 350 ci engines and that part number is #3887023. I have my original 1968 Z28 heat riser valve in my hand and it looks identical to the NOS one shown above. I would take a picture of mine but being it looks identical, I see no reason for another picture.
BTW.....the 1969 AIM shows in the exact position as John Z's.
I saw that in the AIM, and wonder if they were all assembled like that. I have found a couple pics of so called" original cars " where they were installed vertical or parallel to the frame rail.
As I said mine could have been turned by accident(?) when the new exhaust was installed, just seemed unlikely.
(here is a pic of a so called original)
According to my July 1969 issue of the 1967-1969 Camaro Master Parts catalog, the heat riser valve is the same part number for the 1967 thru 1969, 302ci, 327ci, and 350 ci engines and that part number is #3887023. I have my original 1968 Z28 heat riser valve in my hand and it looks identical to the NOS one shown above. I would take a picture of mine but being it looks identical, I see no reason for another picture.
BTW.....the 1969 AIM shows in the exact position as John Z's.
I saw that in the AIM, and wonder if they were all assembled like that. I have found a couple pics of so called" original cars " where they were installed vertical or parallel to the frame rail.
As I said mine could have been turned by accident(?) when the new exhaust was installed, just seemed unlikely.
(here is a pic of a so called original)
I have an original 69 Z28 w/original exh. manifolds and still has the old original smog equip, mine is installed like this.
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Hey Mike,
which way is yours installed like John Z, or like the pics I posted? what is the build date of your car? (just curious if they may have installed it differently at one point)
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The weight points towards the firewall
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The weight points towards the firewall
Well thats what is debatable, JohnZ car it is pointed towards firewall, and it also shows that in the AIM. I have seen original cars with it both ways (weight pointed to the firewall, or pointed to the frame rail). It made me wonder if they switched the way they mounted them, Maybe later 69 cars have it pointed towards the firewall? or who was working that shift on the line when installing? Just a wild guess on my part.
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Here's my '69Z.
JohnZ's heat riser appears to be mounted (as I view it) where the weight is pointing towards the RF wheel well... (NOT towards firewall).
Someone referenced the AIM.. I've searched thru it, looking for a view of the heat riser,and could not find one. What section/page is this located in?
and to respond to another comment: Yes, Z28's have/had headers (or 99% did) within a few days of delivery, as that was the intention of the engineer who conceived/designed the 302... :) .. it's only now that we are all striving to 'restore' to factory configuration.. :)
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UPC-6, sheet C6....the Engine Section
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Here's a pic of my original on the bench. Hope it helps.
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UPC-6, sheet C6....the Engine Section
Thanks.. I don't know how I missed that one *S* and the sketch shows it's mounting consistent with the way JohnZ's is mounted in his photo...
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Here's a pic of my original on the bench. Hope it helps.
Jim, your heat riser is 'rotated' as shown in your photo, from that shown in the AIM and on JohnZ's engine.. There should only be 3 potential orientations, and one of those is likely impossible due to interference with the engine. Either of the other two might 'work', but I think I'd go with what the AIm shows, all else being equal.
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My 70Z has the heat riser in the same position as JDV69Z's I cut what was left of the original exhaust system off of the car during disassembly. The car had never been apart.
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The heat riser valve in the photo in reply #30 appears to be installed upside-down; pushing the weight down (toward the ground) against spring pressure opens it, and that valve can't be pushed down because of the limit pin - it can only be pushed UP. The valve has a flat side, and a chamfered side - the flat side goes against the flat exhaust manifold outlet with a fire-ring gasket, and the chamfered side goes against the flared exhaust pipe with a "donut".
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The weight points towards the firewall
Well thats what is debatable, JohnZ car it is pointed towards firewall, and it also shows that in the AIM. I have seen original cars with it both ways (weight pointed to the firewall, or pointed to the frame rail). It made me wonder if they switched the way they mounted them, Maybe later 69 cars have it pointed towards the firewall? or who was working that shift on the line when installing? Just a wild guess on my part.
Sorry, I mis typed. John Z car IT IS pointed towards the frame rail. Mine is pointed towards the firewall, I have seen it both ways on original cars. I am unsure if one is correct and the other is not.
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The heat riser valve in the photo in reply #30 appears to be installed upside-down; pushing the weight down (toward the ground) against spring pressure opens it, and that valve can't be pushed down because of the limit pin - it can only be pushed UP. The valve has a flat side, and a chamfered side - the flat side goes against the flat exhaust manifold outlet with a fire-ring gasket, and the chamfered side goes against the flared exhaust pipe with a "donut".
John check out the pic in post 22 and then look again. It looks like it is installed just as it is shown in the picture (chamfered towards the flared exhaust, flat side towards manifold)
also looks like it is installed just like JDV's on the bench.
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the AIM only shows it one way... and the 'flat side MUST go up with the donut side down, towards the exhaust pipe....
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I agree with the flat side must go toward the manifold, and donut side towards the exhaust pipe. I also agree that it could only go the 2 ways weight pointed towards the frame rail, or pointed towards the firewall. I think the only thing in question now is did the Z/28 leave the line with it only in the one position that is shown in the AIM, or was there a reason it may have been positioned toward the firewall or was it the line workers preference. OR all the original pictures I have and the one shown on the bench by JDV are the exception?
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OK guys this is what I found on the 2 heat risers I have...It didn't dawn on me to look in the 1969 Impala A.I.M. I have so I just looked. The part number is 3887024. I Googled the number and found this link on ebay...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-GM-3887024-HEAT-RISER-1966-1967-1968-1975-CORVETTE-1971-Chevelle-SS-454-/181255491532?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a33ab4fcc&vxp=mtr#ht_3282wt_1007
I founds this as well that has what dates it was used on. I think someone else posted this link too. HR024 is the number and one above it is the small block valve HR023.
http://www.hamiltonmanufacturing.ca/hrv.htm
No clue who really makes them or if anybody does other then GM.
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OER makes a repro part for a lot less money($69), that seems to match up pretty well (in external appearance and configuration) with the NOS one offered for $240.. This probably works for most 2" Camaro V8 systems.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OER-Exhaust-Heat-Riser-Valve-2-0-in-Diameter-Chevy-GMC-Each-/190969149688?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c76a5f8f8&vxp=mtr
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The heat riser valve in the photo in reply #30 appears to be installed upside-down; pushing the weight down (toward the ground) against spring pressure opens it, and that valve can't be pushed down because of the limit pin - it can only be pushed UP. The valve has a flat side, and a chamfered side - the flat side goes against the flat exhaust manifold outlet with a fire-ring gasket, and the chamfered side goes against the flared exhaust pipe with a "donut".
I'll reverse it and try again.
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Hey guys, heat valve #3887023 is available from GMPartsDirect.com at $50.00 plus shipping if anyone is looking. I'll post pics when it comes in.
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Here's an update...GM part #3880723, heat riser valve, no longer available, it has been discontinued. Add that to the correct aluminum nose piece used on the 1108367 starter. Well, it's back to looking for a used one again.
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I called my local chevy dealer ltoday; they didn’t show this number on their books. Discontinued for a long while, but they checked other dealers, and found a few dealers who did show one in stock: They gave me a couple of dealers that showed them in stock (but the price is a bit high). I called both and confirmed they had ONE part each:
Athens, TX gm part in gm box.. $95.20. 903-675-5115
Grayslake, Illinois part on shelf $95.20 847-223-9086
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Wtg Gary. Now if you could go ahead and order it and install it for him....
If you were a good CRG member you could make that happen...j/k
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One can lead a Camaro guy to water, but you cannot make him drink.... :)
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The local GM dealer here told me discontinued as well.
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It sounds like Gary W.(RS) found some old stock , hopefully that inventory is correct and one of the dealers will have it for you Gary. Gary W. did the leg work and found them for you, I look forward to hearing that 1 of the dealerships still had it.
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they both had one as of this morning, and there were other dealers with stock as well. The Iliinois dealer must have known I was calling LD, as he told me the price was $95.20 plus shipping... (so he was willing to ship to the customer). I specifically asked for this part number. They each confirmed they had one by checking their shelf, and they each told me the part was still in the GM box. SO. If you want it for that price, call them tomorrow morning.. early.. :)
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Just Curious if Gary (or anyone else) called and bought the heat risers today? $95 is not 'cheap', but it's apparently the list price now for that part, and MUCH cheaper than the $240 on Ebay for the same part...
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Not sure if there is still interest, but here's pics of my 69 Z manifold/heat riser again. I think I have the heat riser in the correct orientation this time.
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And more.
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My website has a engine pic of the 70 Z with 1100 miles. Pic is too large to post here. http://www.1970z28camaro.com/engine/
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Yours seems to be oriented towards the firewall, Charley.. Are the part numbers for the exhaust manifolds and heat risers the same for '69 and '70 ??
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Mine is oriented the same as Charleys. Now how does it show it is mounted in the 70 AIM?
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FYI....There are two different searches when you request a part number....normally you give them a part number and they will search to see if they have it in stock or if it is currently not discontinued, they will order it for you. There is another search where they will query all the other GM dealers for the part number to see if they have in stock....normally they will not do this for you as it is time consuming and they do not want their parts guys taking up this additional time. If your are on good terms with a local parts guy, you might get this done for you if you ask.
That has been my experience anyway.
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My 70 Z heat riser is positioned the same as Charley's. I wish it was together as Charley's!
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I'm going to assume that we have this figured out? Seems to me there are 2 ways for this valve to be built and the 2 I have are for different models and year Chevrolets and not used on the Camaro, but I am only guessing there. Thanks for the help in locating the valves, that was nice of you Gary W. to do that not just for me but for others that are looking. I'm going to keep looking for a decent used one and see what I can find. I can use the wrong one at this point until I do find one.
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Maybe this has already been completely resolved. After doing some checking I believe #3887023 Heat valve was used from '67 to '69 on all Smallblock Camaros. I am seeing also that it is called for from '64 to '72 on Smallblock Chevelles and Novas. As for orientation pics. in replies #30,#33, and #45 all seem to be the same, on the outside parallel to the frame, with the heavy "weighted" end of the lever pointing back towards the Firewall. Jerry McN. also has a Blue unrestored '67 Z28 on his website that appears to have this same orientation. Maybe he can chime in, or give him a call.
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NOS one popped up on ebay last night #161165028406
looks like the correct one, although the part number is different from the one Jimmy V. posted
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sorry here is the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/N-O-S-GM-3887023-1967-1969-Camaro-64-72-Chevelle-Nova-NOS-Heat-Riser-Valve-/161165028406?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item25862f2c36&vxp=mtr
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I'm assuming that that part no. on the heat riser pic posted is for the raw casting part only?
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Hey guys, I'm revisiting this post again since I never got the chance to follow it thru. I'm hoping if I keep looking I may find a decent used one. I'm sure they are out there somewhere. $95.00 dealer price really isn't too bad, as was stated, it's better then the ebay prices for NOS.
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well that one I had found on ebay went for $100. Seems alright