CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: Edgemontvillage on November 01, 2013, 03:19:54 PM
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Would appreciate opinions as to the originality of this 837 stamping:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img853/6548/iz0j.jpg)
Additional photos:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img191/179/12yv.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img6/5789/zntw.jpg)
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The 11 & 837 look larger than the 00..??..
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I don't have a good pic of mine to post, but the stamp on mine appears to be more uniform as far as the font. I agree with Cook, it looks like the 11 and 837 look a tad thicker and larger than the 00.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/superslow/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/photo_zpsea12893d.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/superslow/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20396%20Camaro/photo_zpsea12893d.jpg.html)
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Lloyd - just a word of caution on "837" alternators - I had to source one for my Z last year. I really struggled to sort out real from the fakes. It takes a real pro to know is what I found out. Fortunately, Jerry MacNiesh was rebuilding my engine at the time and I was able to get his confirmation the one I was considering was real. I think he rejected 90% of the ones I sent him for consideration (at least 15 - 20 samples). I was quite shocked how many re-stamps are out there.
Heres the one I bought, confirmed by Jerry as a real "837". It's a little early for my build (March), but within the acceptable range. Also, I'll take a better pic if needed.
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9117_zpse0c5e6a1.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9117_zpse0c5e6a1.jpg.html)
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Wow, it almost looks like your alt. # has the 11 and 837 bigger. Maybe it's just the angle. Sure would be nice to pull that bolt, and stand it up for a better straight on shot. :)... Danny
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It's not - here's the best other pic I have. I'll take a better pic this weekend and post. Jerry M confirmed it's real and rebuilt/restored it.
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/AltPic_zps507c808b.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/AltPic_zps507c808b.jpg.html)
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Lloyd - just a word of caution on "837" alternators - I had to source one for my Z last year. I really struggled to sort out real from the fakes. It takes a real pro to know is what I found out. Fortunately, Jerry MacNiesh was rebuilding my engine at the time and I was able to get his confirmation the one I was considering was real. I think he rejected 90% of the ones I sent him for consideration (at least 15 - 20 samples). I was quite shocked how many re-stamps are out there.
Heres the one I bought, confirmed by Jerry as a real "837". It's a little early for my build (March), but within the acceptable range. Also, I'll take a better pic if needed.
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9117_zpse0c5e6a1.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9117_zpse0c5e6a1.jpg.html)
Yes, I agree with your comments Hans. I have seen plenty of 837 stamps and the impressions are most all inconsistant - they were hand/gang stamped for identification and not for artistic merit. On your 837 the bottom of the 0s (zeros) appear irregular and the foot of the first number 1 (one) is mis-stamped, typical irregularities found on others. I have been paying far more attention to the condition of the aluminum case on un-restored orginals as its extremely difficult to fake / replicate 45 years of patina so tampering is easier to detect.
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There is another 837 alternator on Ebay #251370450530 with the same date to do a comparison.
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There is another 837 alternator on Ebay #251370450530 with the same date to do a comparison.
Dates are 1 month apart.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img708/989/myho.jpg)
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I'm no expert buy that looks pretty damn good to me Edge. Check this link out, it is a RE-STAMP: http://yenkocamaroparts.com/images/Alternator%201100837.jpg
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I'm no expert buy that looks pretty damn good to me Edge. Check this link out, it is a RE-STAMP: http://yenkocamaroparts.com/images/Alternator%201100837.jpg
I agree with DT. The stamp looks OK to me and has an original patina to it along with some character imperfections. I'm sure there must have been more than one mechanical stamper in production to keep up with the demand which would account for differences even between close dates. Restamps look too good, IMO.
Mike
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That re-stamp looks really nice. Like they spent all day getting it just right, and fortunately for us we have guys that can point that stuff out. It seems like really have to look at a large sample before you can start picking out the good form the bad, or correct from re-stamp. There are some talented re-stampers out there thats for sure :-\
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Thanks for the input. I'm looking for constructive input on the the "7". Does anyone have an original with the same digit / character shape?
(http://imageshack.us/a/img203/5876/gno8.jpg)
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Here is my 9-E-23, still has the CZ ink stamp, 100% ORIGINAL for sure, have owned this Z28 since 1974. Its kinda scratched up from some ham fisted morron using a pry bar to tighten the belt, it still has the dated diodes and has never been apart. The 00 is faint on it too, as well as the 7 on the stamp.
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Lloyd,
Here's a clearer pic of my alternator. Hope this helps. Unfortunately, I don't have enough expertise to comment the one you are considering, so can't add value there.
Not sure why Photobucket rotated the picture. I re-rotated on the site, but reverts back to this mode when I add the link. If you click through the pick, it should display normally.
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/DZ%20%20Engine%20and%20Components/DSC_5204_zps5690f903.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/DZ%20%20Engine%20and%20Components/DSC_5204_zps5690f903.jpg.html)
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Here is my 9-E-23, still has the CZ ink stamp, 100% ORIGINAL for sure, have owned this Z28 since 1974. Its kinda scratched up from some ham fisted morron using a pry bar to tighten the belt, it still has the dated diodes and has never been apart. The 00 is faint on it too, as well as the 7 on the stamp.
Man...that's the date I need for my car. Nice.
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One thing that I have noticed with a few of the originals, is it looks like they were a little heavy handed on the "A" and the "G", at least more so than the other letters for some reason. Here is the best pic of mine that I could capture with out having to remove it. (Date is 9D 3 )
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Another example of an 9A13 to add to the mix. And I agree with the above post when trying to find a real Alt. The As and Gs seem to always be striked hard/stamped hard.
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Here is my 2 cents worth. Picture below is mine and OK'd by Jerry MacNeish. I talked to John Pirkle (Now Deceased) on the stampings
of alternators and he indicated that a lot where slopy stamped. Many had that "ghost" figure we see all the time. Stamping of the alt.
where not in the same ballpark as engine stampings. (Where some where stamped on the slopy side also) I think most org. are trying to
make a science out of this from a time where no one cared how the stamp was including the stamper. IMHO Larry
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The engine deck is a flat surface, and the gang holder apparently worked well. The alternator body is a significantly curved surface over the the length of the stamped characters, and I would not think the same kind of gang holder would work very well, but I have NO idea how it was done originally, or how the restampers do it..?
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Now I am not sure where I read this, but to my understanding, the machine that put the numbers on the casting rolled it on, so one could conclude if moving L. to Rt., pressure would be exerted down and also in a Rt. direction. When the pressure of the roller got to the end of the die more pressure was concentrated on less surface area resulting in the end letters, "A"&"G", being deeper and more pronounced and you can see in the pics the right side of the letters are elongated to the righthand direction showing the force of die roller. I also theorize that some characters (numbers-letters) were fixed in the die meaning bolted in so they did not need to be changed as often. I say this because many stampings are heavier where the "837" is as opposed to the "1100" . I believe that the 1100 was one set of "fixed" dies and the 837 was in another gang holder that could easily be swapped out. Don't beat me up, it is just my theory based on observation, facts and what makes sense in production as I have an Aerospace machining background. Once the die was set up with the redundant information (everything except the date and the 837 or whatever last 3 numbers used), they would be shelved until needed and the rest of the data added explaining different boldness of characters. I should add the same pressure to surface applies to the far Left characters as well. Also casting tolerances diameter and out of roundness affect clarity and depth of characters.
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Here's mine
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Now I am not sure where I read this, but to my understanding, the machine that put the numbers on the casting rolled it on, so one could conclude if moving L. to Rt., pressure would be exerted down and also in a Rt. direction. When the pressure of the roller got to the end of the die more pressure was concentrated on less surface area resulting in the end letters, "A"&"G", being deeper and more pronounced and you can see in the pics the right side of the letters are elongated to the righthand direction showing the force of die roller. I also theorize that some characters (numbers-letters) were fixed in the die meaning bolted in so they did not need to be changed as often. I say this because many stampings are heavier where the "837" is as opposed to the "1100" . I believe that the 1100 was one set of "fixed" dies and the 837 was in another gang holder that could easily be swapped out. Don't beat me up, it is just my theory based on observation, facts and what makes sense in production as I have an Aerospace machining background. Once the die was set up with the redundant information (everything except the date and the 837 or whatever last 3 numbers used), they would be shelved until needed and the rest of the data added explaining different boldness of characters. I should add the same pressure to surface applies to the far Left characters as well. Also casting tolerances diameter and out of roundness affect clarity and depth of characters.
That sounds like pretty good reasoning.
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I am no expert, but all of the 7's posted in this thread so far look to be the same to me. With Consistent tail curve.
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Alternators and distributors were roll stamped. All digits were removable in the stamp.
Never thought to take a pic of the stampers that we used at work - for both alt's and dist's no less.
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Lloyd,
Here's a clearer pic of my alternator. Hope this helps. Unfortunately, I don't have enough expertise to comment the one you are considering, so can't add value there.
Not sure why Photobucket rotated the picture. I re-rotated on the site, but reverts back to this mode when I add the link. If you click through the pick, it should display normally.
(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/DZ%20%20Engine%20and%20Components/DSC_5204_zps5690f903.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/DZ%20%20Engine%20and%20Components/DSC_5204_zps5690f903.jpg.html)
Thanks for posting Hans, although your 837 has been restored certain of the characters are unmistakeably distinct and unique to the original stamping set.