CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: yankeechaser on October 17, 2013, 06:25:01 PM

Title: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: yankeechaser on October 17, 2013, 06:25:01 PM
has anyone seen this mo 44 before I recall reading something about it once before but not sure any help would be appreciated thank you
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28 on October 17, 2013, 07:19:09 PM
Fixed.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 1968RSZ28 on October 17, 2013, 07:46:28 PM
has anyone seen this mo 44 before I recall reading something about it once before but not sure any help would be appreciated thank you

It's not MO44, it's M044.  That's the Fisher Body body scheduling code.  More info here...

http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#CowlTag

Paul
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: yankeechaser on October 17, 2013, 07:53:43 PM
Thank you both so just a x44 car ? or mo 44 is schedule ?
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28 on October 17, 2013, 08:13:34 PM
Not sure how to make that X44 determination on a VN car. Here is something that will better explain the code difference with the Van Nuys trim tag.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=11013.0


If I'm reading that statement correctly then the M044 is the 13th day of the month (01C, January 3rd week) with the 44th car being built that day? Does this sound correct?
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: HOT3O2 on October 17, 2013, 09:11:34 PM
Since the first day of the month (Jan. 69) was a Wed. would that be part of (12E) or (01A) build? Would you need to know that to determine what day the car was built?
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 17, 2013, 09:18:57 PM
No, you can best estimate the exact day your car was built using the VIN, along with the 'end of month' VIN numbers provided in the CRG files, along with the calendar for the month of production, check the number of work days, the total production for the month, and daily production rate, and then calculate which work day your car was 'likely produced (+/- a day)...
UHOH..  I may have spoke too soon, seeing now this was a VN car... ??  Maybe there's a better way for VN???
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: HOT3O2 on October 17, 2013, 09:32:26 PM
Yes Gary I see what your getting at. I too have VN car. (12B) with a body scheduling code of (I406) and I was figuring a Monday or Tuesday build.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 17, 2013, 09:39:34 PM
I'm unsure if there was an 'uniform' Camaro production schedule at VN...?   Can anyone provide information on that?
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28 on October 17, 2013, 09:54:00 PM
Yes Gary I see what your getting at. I too have VN car. (12B) with a body scheduling code of (I406) and I was figuring a Monday or Tuesday build.

So this would be I = 9th day of the month January, B week, which is a Thursday, and the 406th car built for that day. Maybe?
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: HOT3O2 on October 17, 2013, 10:12:47 PM
So Saturdays and Sundays don't come into play in this code?
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28 on October 17, 2013, 10:15:36 PM
So Saturdays and Sundays don't come into play in this code?

Rick, I'm not sure about VN plant but I thought JohnZ mentioned that Saturdays were common at the NOR plant.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: HOT3O2 on October 17, 2013, 10:22:33 PM
Well it's a little more clear to me now Gary. At least I can narrow it down to a day or two. It's nice to know when it's your cars birthday.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28 on October 17, 2013, 11:00:38 PM
Rick, of course this is just me thinking this all out in my head and I could be wrong. I'm sure if others are reading this they are calculating too. Seems to me the VN plant can be figured out to the day but the NOR plant is a bit more difficult to pin it down.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: HOT3O2 on October 17, 2013, 11:38:53 PM
I hear you Gary. I know this isn't scientific but it's nice to all you guys out there to throw this stuff back and forth. And you never know - We might actually figure it out someday.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: yankeechaser on October 18, 2013, 01:22:06 AM
Lots of interesting questions raised and some others answered.  thanks everyone
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 18, 2013, 03:27:46 AM
Rick, of course this is just me thinking this all out in my head and I could be wrong. I'm sure if others are reading this they are calculating too. Seems to me the VN plant can be figured out to the day but the NOR plant is a bit more difficult to pin it down.

I'm not so sure about this, as I understand it, Norwood produced Camaros on a regular production schedule, whereas VN produced other cars, and produced Camaros on a much lower rate.. so was their production *spurty* or regular on a very low rate?  I'd rather extimate Norwood production based on VIN than try to estimate VN date..  :)
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: william on October 21, 2013, 05:46:02 PM
Norwood gets tough to estimate starting April 1969 when Firebird production moved there. For a short period no Camaros were built. VN isn't difficult. Chevrolet published the last VIN produced by month for all plants. That combined with VN broadcast sheets showing the date printed [after body fab] makes it possible to closely estimate production. There was a work stoppage there so some cars with May body tags were final assembled much later. For reasons unknown Norwood broadcast copies are not dated.

The production rate at VN for Camaros was not constant. The 57/hour at Norwood was the max rate and they didn't always hit that number. They also worked some Saturdays.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 21, 2013, 07:20:18 PM
I'm just trying to make sense of all the numbers...

At 57/hr, they would have had to work more than 8 hr shifts daily to meet the production achieved, as shown in the table below.   (8x57=456, 9 x 57 = 513, 10 x 57=570, 11 x 57 = 627, 12 x 57 = 684, etc...)  

Were they always working two shifts over the entire prod year?  Adding or stopping shifts would seem difficult to do based on manpower?
The impact of adding Firebird production can hardly be noticed....?
 
Norwood Plant         
Month End   work days   Daily avg
   ramping up..?
30-Sep-68   20   607   
31-Oct-68   23   791   
30-Nov-68   20   1076   
31-Dec-68   21   863   adjusting to meet demand?
31-Jan-69   22   897   
28-Feb-69   20   872   
31-Mar-69   21   782   
30-Apr-69   22   615   adding firebird prod?
31-May-69   21   629   
30-Jun-69   21   652   
31-Jul-69   22   232   ??
31-Aug-69   21   435   
30-Sep-69   21   684   back to demand rate?
31-Oct-69   23   666   
10-Nov-69   19   210   69 prod ending
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: william on October 22, 2013, 12:21:00 AM
Based on Canadian import records it is known that cars were built at Norwood and shipped late August 1968. Production start-up probably began Monday, August 19. There are many details to attend to so production is nowhere near capacity; less than 2,000 cars were built during the 10 days of production. Chevy did not publish the last VIN for August ’68 so the data is extrapolated by working backwards. The first two ZL1 Camaros were delivered to Gibb Chev on Dec 31, 1968 putting their final assembly on the last day of 1968 production December 27, 1968. Last car built in ’68 at Norwood was N569987.

1968 estimated work days for Norwood were Aug 10, Sep 21, Oct 21, Nov 24, and Dec 20.

1969: Jan 22, Feb 20, Mar 18, Apr 20, May 20, Jun 20, July 10, Aug 15, Sep 19, Oct 25, Nov 5.

From Oct ’68 through March ’69 Norwood operated at capacity; 57 units per hour, 912 per week. As of April ’69 that dropped by 25% due to Firebird production moving there. No Camaros were built April 6-12. The first two weeks of May ’69 saw production again hit 912/week, the last time that would happen as production capacity was shared with Firebird through the end of production.

VN appears to have started a bit earlier with cars thought to have been assembled as early as August 12-there are some 08A body tag dates. Knowing the last VIN for each month and with about a dozen broadcast copy dates one can re-construct a reasonably accurate calendar through April. That’s when the stoppage hit; the last few cars may have been built as late as early July. The peak months were Jan and Feb with production hitting 250-280 Camaros per week.
 
It’s a work in process-as more data becomes available I see how it fits-and thus far it usually does.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 22, 2013, 04:13:36 AM
Thanks William for the extra information.  I had built myself a spread sheet using the end of month figures but using the actual last day of the month.  I will attempt to improve that using the information you've just provided.  :)
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: MyRed67 on October 22, 2013, 04:21:33 AM
 I have an 11A build LOS Camaro Coupe that has A638 in that position.  I was told on here about the Body Scheduling code.  It was only used on LOS cars, the letter was used to indicate the "build" day of the month; A was 1 st., B was 2nd., C - 3 rd., etc., etc..  The letter was supposed to revert back to A on the 1 st. build day of every month, I was told this did not always happen as planned.  And the 638 would not have been just for Camaro, but for all models built.  So my my car "should" have been very near the end of day Nov. 1 st.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: KurtS on October 22, 2013, 05:18:28 AM
Remember, that's the scheduling code, not the production sequence. They could and did pull bodies ahead or behind by a few days.
That is, most Axxx cars would be built a given day, but some would be before or after.
You can have a 10B car with a Lxxx tag and a 10C also with an Lxxx tag. They have the same scheduling letter, but were produced different days.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: TODD on October 22, 2013, 12:17:26 PM
So Kurt any idea what a 1/2 code "build" day of the month would be on a 10E Los Angeles Camaro?
I have sent you my 69 Z/28 data previously.

Todd
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: KurtS on October 23, 2013, 12:53:31 AM
Yes. They somehow used up all the build day letters that month in 69. Never seen it happen before or after.
But they needed to use something after Z, so they used symbols.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: HOT3O2 on October 23, 2013, 03:35:49 PM
Todd, Is that "1/2 code build date" on the trim tag?

Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: TODD on October 24, 2013, 01:24:32 AM
Yes;
 Here is the tag, my theory is it was built on Halloween plus it's orange :)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/ToddZ/DataPlate.jpg)
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 1968RSZ28 on October 24, 2013, 02:09:01 AM
Here is the tag, my theory is it was built on Halloween plus it's orange :)

You've found the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown!

 :)

Paul
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: JohnZ on October 24, 2013, 03:36:57 PM
I'm just trying to make sense of all the numbers...

At 57/hr, they would have had to work more than 8 hr shifts daily to meet the production achieved, as shown in the table below.   (8x57=456, 9 x 57 = 513, 10 x 57=570, 11 x 57 = 627, 12 x 57 = 684, etc...)   

Were they always working two shifts over the entire prod year?  Adding or stopping shifts would seem difficult to do based on manpower?

They worked two 8-hour shifts. 16 hours x 57 per hour = 912 per day.

Adding or dropping shifts was a manpower training and quality nightmare due to seniority-driven "shift-bumping" - it wasn't done.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: HOT3O2 on October 24, 2013, 06:42:56 PM
Thanks for the picture Todd. I've never seen anything like that before.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 24, 2013, 07:17:25 PM
I'm just trying to make sense of all the numbers...

At 57/hr, they would have had to work more than 8 hr shifts daily to meet the production achieved, as shown in the table below.   (8x57=456, 9 x 57 = 513, 10 x 57=570, 11 x 57 = 627, 12 x 57 = 684, etc...)   

Were they always working two shifts over the entire prod year?  Adding or stopping shifts would seem difficult to do based on manpower?

They worked two 8-hour shifts. 16 hours x 57 per hour = 912 per day.

Adding or dropping shifts was a manpower training and quality nightmare due to seniority-driven "shift-bumping" - it wasn't done.
Thanks John,

Was the difference in the 912/day, and what they actually achieved, made up in firebird production??  or ??
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: Frosty69 on October 25, 2013, 05:32:17 AM
I also have an 01C with I120 , the production date on the build sheet is 1/15.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: VINCE Z28 on October 25, 2013, 06:09:15 AM
John Z , I worked in production for 25 years and we worked 24 / 7  three shifts . Why wasn't the car companies working 3 shifts all those years? Terry
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: JohnZ on October 25, 2013, 05:50:14 PM
John Z , I worked in production for 25 years and we worked 24 / 7  three shifts . Why wasn't the car companies working 3 shifts all those years? Terry

It's a long story, but running an old assembly plant that employed 7,000 - 8,000 people on 3 shifts was an enormous undertaking; most of the supply system couldn't support it, and vehicle demand wasn't stable enough to justify it on a continuing basis. Norwood ran 3 shifts for a while during the second-gen years, and it wasn't a success.

Some assembly plants run 3 shifts today to maximize utilization of capacity, but those plants and the supply/logistics systems that support them were designed to do that from the beginning.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: JohnZ on October 25, 2013, 05:57:02 PM
I'm just trying to make sense of all the numbers...

At 57/hr, they would have had to work more than 8 hr shifts daily to meet the production achieved, as shown in the table below.   (8x57=456, 9 x 57 = 513, 10 x 57=570, 11 x 57 = 627, 12 x 57 = 684, etc...)   

Were they always working two shifts over the entire prod year?  Adding or stopping shifts would seem difficult to do based on manpower?

They worked two 8-hour shifts. 16 hours x 57 per hour = 912 per day.

Adding or dropping shifts was a manpower training and quality nightmare due to seniority-driven "shift-bumping" - it wasn't done.
Thanks John,

Was the difference in the 912/day, and what they actually achieved, made up in firebird production??  or ??


912 per day was the number, and the Camaro/Firebird mix was established and stable;  that mix didn't change without plenty of advance notice to the supply system. If they came up short (due to mechanical breakdowns, material shortages, etc.), incremental daily overtime was scheduled to make it up.
Title: Re: 1969 California trim tag code mo 44 ?
Post by: william on October 25, 2013, 10:33:20 PM
I also have an 01C with I120 , the production date on the build sheet is 1/15.

That's the day the Chevy paperwork was printed and final assembly started; body fab was complete. The car rolled off the line a day or two later.