CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: DyRally-Z1986 on September 02, 2013, 06:55:55 PM

Title: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: DyRally-Z1986 on September 02, 2013, 06:55:55 PM
I have a question for you guys out there who do not have your orginal numbers matching engine. When you go to put your car together and look for an engine do you look for a DZ motor to help with the resale value or do you put a regular GM block in there? Im trying to keep the resale value up and not do too much damage to the value or orginality of the car. Thanks guys
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: BULLITT65 on September 02, 2013, 07:38:49 PM
I look at a lot of 69 Z cars for sale, and it seems to me the 69 Z/28 that do not have their original motors, the owner will try to find 1) a original 69 DZ block, 2) if possible one that would be closest to the date of the original 302 the car would have had. This seems to be the best bet for value to potential buyers.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: DyRally-Z1986 on September 02, 2013, 07:48:33 PM
The reason I ask is I see most DZ Blocks in the range of 3-5k for a bare block and if it wasn't going to help the value I didn't want to put out that kind of money. On the other hand if it would help then I wouldn't mind putting in the extra cash.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: BULLITT65 on September 02, 2013, 08:24:06 PM
I would say if you got a block with your car and have it in and its running and you are happy with it, good. In the meanwhile you could try to locate a 302 with a date that would be close to what the original block in your car would have had. The other option would be a warranty replacement block, but IMO I don't think it makes much of a difference value wise between the 2. Once you locate a block with a date close to what your original would have been, then I would recommend getting as many date and correct parts as possible or in your budget. ex: distributor, alternator, intake, exhaust manifolds...., this way if you were going to sell it in the future, you could say while the motor is not original most everything else is as close to factory correct as possible, and you could list the parts and dates of what you have compiled to make the car as correct as you could. I would say IMO that would be the next best thing to a car with the numbers matching motor.
IMO the 302 4 speed only is what makes the Z/28 special or significant. You could put a 350 or what ever other block in it, but then its just like any other camaro but with Z emblems.
Why would someone want to buy a so called "original" Z/28 if it just had a 350 in it? you could by any v8 camaro and put the Z emblems on, and thats ok many people do!
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: 69Z28 on September 02, 2013, 10:54:02 PM
This is a good topic.

I would want to find a DZ block to at least say the car had one. Finding one as close to the build date of your car to me is just the thrill of the hunt for the original. Mine is gone, so I found one that is extremely close and have it sitting, all together and ready for me to get off my lazy ass to install it. Well, that's not entirely true, I'm not lazy, but I keep looking for my original in the hopes that if I ever do stumble across it I have something I can make the switch with. I don't ever think it will happen, but, you never know. I bought my block cheap around 2002, but today with the blocks/parts being held hostage for a hefty ransom, which to me really stinks, I'm ahead of the game money wise.

On the Camaro that is a Z28 or not a Z28 without the engine, IDK. There's a lot of people who think a lot of different ways and have a lot of different views. For me the Z was built a certain way,  not the same as the plane jane Camaros or the SS Camaros. I'm in the middle on that I think. If you lost the engine and had to put in another to drive it, be it another 302 or 350 or a straight six, isn't it still a Z28? From day one when that first piece of metal was spot welded to the next piece of metal and so on that car was destined to be a Z28. Some people think it's the engine that makes the Z28, of course it does, but what about all the other Z28 specific parts that made it a Z28? This is a subject that will be debated on as long as there are people on this earth to debate with.

Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: rsr on September 02, 2013, 11:08:03 PM
 I agree..having a real DZ block with a close or any build date would be the best option. Nows days finding one without a restamped block is rare.........3-5k for a real block-real stamp........good investment
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: Mark on September 02, 2013, 11:17:10 PM
At 5k for a block you won't increase the value of the car to ever recoup your money.  It's never going to be numbers matching.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: HOT3O2 on September 02, 2013, 11:45:58 PM
I'd have to agree with Mark. That kind of money for the block, and then the cost to build it to 302 spec's. Then you have to go out and find the Z/28 specific parts. And you all know what those are going for these days. To me it wouldn't be worth the investment. Just drive it with the engine you have and enjoy.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: janobyte on September 02, 2013, 11:47:19 PM
You can get a Dart little M ,Callies rotating assembly ,Lunati roller, Dart heads and intake---better add the Moser rear end and axles !---be ahead $$ and put my numbers Z in the weeds---food for thought   ;)

The prices are down on these cars and yet the rare parts are through the roof ,IMO wouldn't get a return on your money to build a non numbers match 302. Of course I'm no expert, just own one.

And yes ,it P's me off the prices ,captive/hostage is a great term. 1300 for an alternator ? no time soon!
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: tom on September 03, 2013, 12:58:14 AM
I think you could build a 302 from many blocks, save your money for the internals, and maybe get a better return on your investment.  There was only one original block, if you don't have it you don't have it. 5k for the wrong block might feel good, but still need the internals to make it go like a Z. I would consider just cloning the 302 from a solid small block core.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: 69Z28-RS on September 03, 2013, 01:45:46 AM
I agree with Tom; the DZ on the block only means something IF it is THE original engine for your car (from the factory)... otherwise, it's just a 'stamp'.   If you love the characteristics of the 302 engine, then build yourself a 'functional replacement', and forget the 'DZ' code.   
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: DyRally-Z1986 on September 03, 2013, 02:21:29 AM
Well you guys have given me two different perspectives. One being get a DZ block (And might not get my money out of it), number two take a small block and clone a 302. To me it would seem cloning would be the better option if a "non original motor" is not going to help the resale value would be the way to go...
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on September 03, 2013, 02:44:05 AM
The original engine for my car is long gone (I tracked it until 1977 though!), it blew up a year after my dad bought the car. So when we restored it, we built a non numbers 302 and I've had a blast with it.  I've been looking for a date code correct engine/block, but the prices are nuts. Instead, I've been doing what janobyte suggests, build a stout 302.

I feel a CE engine should be more valuable than a date code correct. When these engines blew up, they were usually replaced with CE ones, not date code correct DZ's. I know I'm in the minority with this thought, but feel it tracks the cars history much closer to what likely happened with these engines.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: 69Z28-RS on September 03, 2013, 03:04:24 AM
A correct 'CE' warranty replacement engine for any GM/Chevrolet car, is better than any other replacement engine possible (IMO) as far as "originality" is concerned.  It's NOT the factory original engine, but it's what the manufacturer did to 'correct a mfg deficiency'.. (which is what a warranty replacement does)...
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: BULLITT65 on September 03, 2013, 03:40:06 AM
From a buyers perspective, without any paperwork to show it as a factory replacement I am not sure that it would garner more money for the seller though. The only reason I state this is his original question is - what would help with the resale value of said car. Would a CE block installed in the same car without documentation, I would guess probably not, but most of this discussion is hypothetical.
 It would seem "cortez Z Gary" (69Z28) would prefer a date correct 302, AND since he would have fit into your category of a once potential buyer of a original 69 Z less the motor the question may be posed to him: Gary, How much more would you have paid for a closely dated nom block had it already been installed in your car?
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: janobyte on September 03, 2013, 01:08:27 PM
Still a Z ,look at the VIN.

You can stick what you want between the wheel wells and you have a" Z " without the 302 . Can't put a 302 in what came with a 6 banger , glide and a 10 bolt and ever make it one.

Like was suggested ,if you're building it to go out and have fun or even have plans in the distant future to sell it , stick another engine in it and keep looking. Too many unknown variables with your car to suggest investing 10K+ in a 302 will immediately raise it to a level demanding top dollar. Plus a deal on one may surface.

 Hate to say ,and am still on the fence, but  probably will end up installing an early 327 I have , leaving the 302 on the stand . That was my thoughts years ago when it got a 400 for street/strip use. The final purpose should dictate the build.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: BULLITT65 on September 05, 2013, 01:37:23 AM
gotta be true to yourself. If you think your going to beat on it and don't want to damage the 302 , I would say smart move.
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: dwz28 on October 05, 2013, 04:10:51 PM
what is a replacement 302 shortblock, never stamped, worth with a few miles on it? DW
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: BULLITT65 on October 05, 2013, 04:30:06 PM
If it is a CE block and you are selling it by itself, it may depend on the casting date. IS it a 4 bolt main or 2 bolt? Has it ever been bored out? .30 out? I would guess a bare short block that hasn't been bored out would fetch between $500 and $1000. It all depends on what someone may be looking for. Is this a block you have? you are buying? or you are looking for one?
If you have it or are potentially going to purchase post some pics of it with bore size to get more feed back on it
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 05, 2013, 04:41:30 PM
CE blocks were *stamped* with CEyxnnnnnn     as warranty replacement engines.   A 'blank' (never stamped) block would be one bought across the counter.  If it has a '69 date on it, and has the Z28 internals, etc.. it could be worth quite a bit to the right person.    Note:  There's another thread on this site dealing with a 'non standard' block casting that were sometimes used, so if it's one of those cast blocks, might be a bit more limited.   What is the casting number, the casting date, etc.  and which internals are with it?
Title: Re: 1969 DZ BLOCK OR NOT...
Post by: VINCE Z28 on October 05, 2013, 07:43:01 PM
If I was looking to buy a 69 Z, original paper work or a go over by Jerry M. would out weight the (NOM) . There are to many knowledgeable people that can put Z parts on cars... ie LA tagged or early Norwood. I know there's lots of 302 motors around, and only one original POP and the like. I'd like to know what Jerry MacNeish would think? Terry