CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: 69Z28freak on June 01, 2013, 02:22:10 AM
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I am doing a drum to disc brake conversion and would like to know what the difference is between drum brake steering arms and steering arms for a 69 Z/28.
Thanks
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From the SUSPENSION (http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#steer) page:
Changes to the steering linkage were used to change the overall steering ratio. Regular cars were equipped with a shorter 5.25" pitman arm (forging # 3953219) and longer steering arms (3954873 RH and 3954874 LH). Z28 and RPO N44 (special steering) cars utilized a longer pitman arm (forging # 3953227, 5.8" center-center) and shorter steering arms.
A special fast-ratio manual steering gear was used for Z28's with RPO N44. The manual Z28 with N44 used with the same longer pitman arm and shorter steering arm combination as listed above. Z28's with N44 are very uncommon (and not fun to drive).
Ed
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From the SUSPENSION (http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#steer) page:
Changes to the steering linkage were used to change the overall steering ratio. Regular cars were equipped with a shorter 5.25" pitman arm (forging # 3953219) and longer steering arms (3954873 RH and 3954874 LH). Z28 and RPO N44 (special steering) cars utilized a longer pitman arm (forging # 3953227, 5.8" center-center) and shorter steering arms.
A special fast-ratio manual steering gear was used for Z28's with RPO N44. The manual Z28 with N44 used with the same longer pitman arm and shorter steering arm combination as listed above. Z28's with N44 are very uncommon (and not fun to drive).
Ed
Thanks Ed
I am putting my subframe together and I was told that the steering arms on a drum brake car are different, than the stock 69 Z/28 steering arms. Also I am using power Discs. Just want to know if I can use my drum brake steering arms or if I should get correct Z/28 steering arms. I think you are saying that the steering arms are only different on the N44 manual brake cars. Is that correct.
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The P & A manual lists them separately so they are different.
There really are no 'Z/28' steering arms. Fast-ratio power steering SS cars used the same arms with the 5.75" Pitman arm. All Z/28s used them with manual or power steering. If you use them you will have to use the 5.75" Pitman PS set up. You could use standard steering disc brake stuff; doesn't have to be fast ratio.
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HERE'S (http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_steering.htm#Steering%20arm%20lengths%20and%20part%20numbers) a link to David Pozi's site showing the differences between the steering arms (scroll down about half way).
Ed
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Are you replacing the drum brake spindles too Mike?
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I put a Right Stuff Detailing Disc Brake conversion kit on my '67, and was told in the instructions to re-use the Drum brake steering arms. I followed the instructions and have put about 2,400 miles on the car with no issues. Drives and handles great. I'm not sure the same applies to '68 or '69, just stating what worked on my '67.
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Are you replacing the drum brake spindles too Mike?
Hey Tim. Yes full disc brake conversion kit from HBC. Installed tonight to make my car a roller. I installed the spindles, rotors and steering arms. Once the car is back in the shop I will do some detail work and torque everything down to spec.
Special thanks to Lloyd for pointing me in the right direction and showing me how to do it right. His help is invaluable on this build. I Could not have come this far with his expertise and guidance.
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/69z28freak/69%20Camaro%20Phase%202%20Part%202/IMG_2477_zps6d044ef4.jpg) (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/69z28freak/media/69%20Camaro%20Phase%202%20Part%202/IMG_2477_zps6d044ef4.jpg.html)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/69z28freak/69%20Camaro%20Phase%202%20Part%202/IMG_2474_zps853eb7d6.jpg) (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/69z28freak/media/69%20Camaro%20Phase%202%20Part%202/IMG_2474_zps853eb7d6.jpg.html)
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/69z28freak/69%20Camaro%20Phase%202%20Part%202/IMG_2476_zpsf9dc6737.jpg) (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/69z28freak/media/69%20Camaro%20Phase%202%20Part%202/IMG_2476_zpsf9dc6737.jpg.html)
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some more info here.
http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_steering.htm#Steering_linkage
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Originally, the upper contol arms, dogbones, bolts and bushings were painted black as an assembly. Instead, many paint the dogbones Cast Blast/natural and leave the bushings and bolts unpainted.
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Originally, the upper contol arms, dogbones, bolts and bushings were painted black as an assembly. Instead, many paint the dogbones Cast Blast/natural and leave the bushings and bolts unpainted.
Interesting. I have never seen a car restored with black painted dog bones and bushings etc. My car was all original and there was no trace of paint left on the dig bones.
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Interesting. I have never seen a car restored with black painted dog bones and bushings etc. My car was all original and there was no trace of paint left on the dig bones.
Info and original photos, pages 18. 19 nd 36. Paint wears off poorly prepped metal. Your car was not rust free, pampered vehicle that rarely saw the elements. Longevity of component paint was not a concern, It's not like they epoxied or powdercoated things back then, or today for that matter. Look at a frame on a new truck after a few years. http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=182584&highlight=control+arms&page=18
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1566542&highlight=control+arms#post1566542 http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1719947&highlight=dog+bones#post1719947
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The pics on page 36 show the painted washers, bushings, shafts etc but also show the bolts and nuts holding the a arm to the frame painted black. Looks to me like someone had done some later painting. This is the first time I have heard that those parts were painted as a assembly.
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Originally, the upper contol arms, dogbones, bolts and bushings were painted black as an assembly. Instead, many paint the dogbones Cast Blast/natural and leave the bushings and bolts unpainted.
I've never seen an unrestored car with the above components painted as you stated above. The pictures posted of those items painted looks like they've been spray canned at some point.
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The pics on page 36 show the painted washers, bushings, shafts etc but also show the bolts and nuts holding the a arm to the frame painted black. Looks to me like someone had done some later painting. This is the first time I have heard that those parts were painted as a assembly.
I overlooked that. I saw no overspray on the fuel line and assumed it was untouched. I generally never take anyone's word for anything unless I verify it with numerous sources and reference. The detail with Chick's build led to my error of assumption. I've never painted all those components black. That thread had me questioning my procedure.
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I just replaced the control arm bushings on my 69SS and I found black paint under the bushings on the lower control arms.
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Originally, the upper control arms, dogbones, bolts and bushings were painted black as an assembly. Instead, many paint the dogbones Cast Blast/natural and leave the bushings and bolts unpainted.
I've never seen an unrestored car with the above components painted as you stated above. The pictures posted of those items painted looks like they've been spray canned at some point.
As I understand it only the control arm was painted black along with the dogbone, bushings and end caps and bolts as a whole unit, correct?
The shims and lock nuts were not painted black due to being assembled later.
Mike
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Mike. I posted Chick's link because those were his findings. I have always left the dogbones natural. It's obvious the nuts and shims were not painted due to the assembly process. I did not immediately notice the nuts appeared black in the photo.
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Mike. I posted Chick's link because those were his findings. I have always left the dogbones natural. It's obvious the nuts and shims were not painted due to the assembly process. I did not immediately notice the nuts appeared black in the photo.
For some strange reason I didn't see any pictures in the links. After rebooting my PC do I now see what you are talking about.
So the control arm, dogbone and mounted bushing's was painted as a whole unit. I can accept that. Were the end washers and bolts painted black too? My thinking is the washers and bolts were added during assembly and torqued down once the full weight was on the chassis (motor, options, etc...). Or were they installed lose on the dogbone ends and painted along with the rest?
Mike
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Originally, the upper contol arms, dogbones, bolts and bushings were painted black as an assembly. Instead, many paint the dogbones Cast Blast/natural and leave the bushings and bolts unpainted.
I've never seen an unrestored car with the above components painted as you stated above. The pictures posted of those items painted looks like they've been spray canned at some point.
Steve, you have never seen a survivor with paint on the dog bone or washers?
Agree the picture in reference by Scott was not good as that was a survivor at last years Camaro Nationals. Car is a great one but that area looks like it sure was hit later on. :)
My amount of cars reviewed is small compared to yours yet I've seen many with black paint remnants.
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Mike. I posted Chick's link because those were his findings. I have always left the dogbones natural. It's obvious the nuts and shims were not painted due to the assembly process. I did not immediately notice the nuts appeared black in the photo.
For some strange reason I didn't see any pictures in the links. After rebooting my PC do I now see what you are talking about.
So the control arm, dogbone and mounted bushing's was painted as a whole unit. I can accept that. Were the end washers and bolts painted black too? My thinking is the washers and bolts were added during assembly and torqued down once the full weight was on the chassis (motor, options, etc...). Or were they installed lose on the dogbone ends and painted along with the rest?
Mike
Reviewing old posts
Plan on dropping the subframe in a few weeks for a nice winter project.....so what's the verdict on the end washers ? Pg # 36 in Chick's build the "unit" is gloss black. Ball joints natural. Final assembly fasteners painted ? Shims natural? I hate replacing them because the car is still tight ,but the bushings show some dry rot ,so they are getting bagged and shelved.
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The upper control arm was positioned in a fixture; the bushings, cross bar, washers and bolts were assembled to it and torqued. The fixture established the position of the bar relative to the arm for assembly to the frame in production. The assembly was then dipped in a black coating. The ball joint was installed afterwards and was not coated. The coating was not intended to last 40+ years; none of the parts had any prep. Don't draw conclusions based on how a part looks today; I have seen plenty of rusty Camaro subframes in my days that were known to have been coated. 44 years is a long time.
Painted upper control arm assemblies are visible in engine bay photos in vintage road tests. Washers were coated.
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What I remembered, thanks.