CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: zman1969 on May 16, 2013, 03:42:21 PM

Title: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: zman1969 on May 16, 2013, 03:42:21 PM
Hello I have been looking/searching here and Camaro.net and really havent seen what i was looking for. I looked at Jerrys book and its an early one, whats the correct finish on the pulleys is it 60% gloss paint? or Phosphate? if paint, what have Y'all been using? I'm about to put mine together and am trying to do this right the first time- just really seeing if any new info had came up
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: Hans L on May 16, 2013, 05:47:54 PM
Jerry MacNeish rebuilt my engine and refinshed the pullies (water pump, crank, and smog).   60% Gloss Black is what he refinished them in. 

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Engine%20Trans%20Rebuild%20J%20MacNeish/DSC_9182_zps31b02ca4.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Engine%20Trans%20Rebuild%20J%20MacNeish/DSC_9182_zps31b02ca4.jpg.html)

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Engine%20Trans%20Rebuild%20J%20MacNeish/DSC_9163_zps125d7b2e.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Engine%20Trans%20Rebuild%20J%20MacNeish/DSC_9163_zps125d7b2e.jpg.html)


(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Engine%20Trans%20Rebuild%20J%20MacNeish/DSC_9188_zpsbe192e4b.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Engine%20Trans%20Rebuild%20J%20MacNeish/DSC_9188_zpsbe192e4b.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28freak on May 17, 2013, 05:13:16 AM
Hey Hans what paint did Jerry use on the engine block?
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: zman1969 on May 17, 2013, 12:34:29 PM
OK what paint is everyone using for 60% gloss black? Hans thanks for the pics
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28-RS on May 17, 2013, 01:28:49 PM
weren't some smog pulleys 'phosphated'?   I think Jerry's book also says that...??   
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: Hans L on May 27, 2013, 04:21:31 PM
Hey Hans what paint did Jerry use on the engine block?

Sorry to the late response - just noticed your question Mike.   I actually asked Jerry some months ago what paint brand he uses - its:  Seymour EN-48 paint.


Hans
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28freak on May 28, 2013, 12:13:24 AM
Hey Hans what paint did Jerry use on the engine block?

Sorry to the late response - just noticed your question Mike.   I actually asked Jerry some months ago what paint brand he uses - its:  Seymour EN-48 paint.


Hans

Thanks Hans. I am going to powder coat all of my black underhood parts. Using the same finish. Thanks for the product number. That is great information.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: rszmjt on May 28, 2013, 03:32:29 AM
weren't some smog pulleys 'phosphated'?   I think Jerry's book also says that...??   


My 06A Z28 smog pulley is phosphated, its original
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28-RS on May 28, 2013, 04:29:13 AM
weren't some smog pulleys 'phosphated'?   I think Jerry's book also says that...??   


My 06A Z28 smog pulley is phosphated, its original
Thanks.  :)   I'm unsure why they did them two ways (two suppliers)?  but I thought I'd seen a number of them phosphated (although all the other pulleys were painted).
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: Hans L on May 28, 2013, 05:43:38 PM
How about the power steering pulley?   I have yet to restore the pump and pulley.  The pulley appears to have been phosphate plated as well.   Compare the finish of the pulley to the pump in the last pic. 

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/PowerSteeringPump5_zps4805aa67.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/PowerSteeringPump5_zps4805aa67.jpg.html)

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/PowerSteeringPump6_zps3c1c1206.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/PowerSteeringPump6_zps3c1c1206.jpg.html)

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/PowerSteeringPump7_zpse271eb01.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/PowerSteeringPump7_zpse271eb01.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: MyRed67 on May 29, 2013, 03:32:27 AM
Hey Hans what paint did Jerry use on the engine block?

Sorry to the late response - just noticed your question Mike.   I actually asked Jerry some months ago what paint brand he uses - its:  Seymour EN-48 paint.

Thanks Hans. I am going to powder coat all of my black underhood parts. Using the same finish. Thanks for the product number. That is great information.

69Z28freak>>>;
 SEYMOUR  EN48  is the Chevy Orange,  many say it is the most accurate color and sheen.   I used a Satin Black for all pulleys.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: Edgemontvillage on May 29, 2013, 07:55:44 PM
Here is a photo of an original '69 Z/28 Power Steering pulley I own. Although the original finish mimics phosphating its definitely paint. In the photo you can see a small area that is chipping on the bottom right side.(http://imageshack.us/a/img153/2439/pspulley.jpg)
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: Hans L on May 30, 2013, 10:09:45 PM
Edmontonvillage - Thanks and interesting.  I'll have to inspect the pulley better and determine if it's paint.   Must be a very light paint as it's not obvious like the other components.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: zman1969 on May 31, 2013, 12:50:00 PM
OK if they were painted what paint will give the closest finish to original? the W/P pulley I have is pretty well just gloss now so I would like to install it once
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: Edgemontvillage on June 21, 2013, 04:30:31 PM
Edmontonvillage - Thanks and interesting.  I'll have to inspect the pulley better and determine if it's paint.   Must be a very light paint as it's not obvious like the other components.

There is no indication it was dip painted (lacks tell tale runs) however its low gloss (at least 44 years later it is). I have not attempted to duplicate it.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: john302 on June 24, 2013, 09:05:06 PM
My thoughts are early cars are phosphated and later cars are painted.Grey phosphated looks way better/but not as durable.Plus paint/powder coating hides rust pits ect.. Powder coating doesn't belong anywhere on a 69 Camaro. All powder coating is a cheap cover up.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: tmodel66 on June 25, 2013, 02:30:36 AM
John you got a grin out of me. Cover up? Maybe ..... Cheap?  HELL NO !!!!!
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: Hans L on June 25, 2013, 02:49:50 PM
My thoughts are early cars are phosphated and later cars are painted.Grey phosphated looks way better/but not as durable.Plus paint/powder coating hides rust pits ect.. Powder coating doesn't belong anywhere on a 69 Camaro. All powder coating is a cheap cover up.

Or multiple vendors were used and GM's supplier spec was vague with regarding to finish requirement leaving it to the vendor to decide.   Also, totally agree with Power Coating or POR 15 for that matter for back to stock restorations as a no-no.   I'm even painting my '69 Z in Lacquer!
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: JohnZ on June 27, 2013, 04:41:46 PM
<<Or multiple vendors were used and GM's supplier spec was vague with regarding to finish requirement leaving it to the vendor to decide.>>

GM pulley finish specs were pretty comprehensive, and didn't leave much to the supplier; here's a typical 1967 Chevrolet finish spec from a pulley drawing.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 27, 2013, 08:19:55 PM
Thanks John,

It's probably safe to assume that this spec didn't change much between '67 and '69...?   :)
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: tmodel66 on June 28, 2013, 11:55:35 AM
Hans L  You cannot put POR-15 and powder coating in the same category. Complete different animals and totally opposite form of coating. 
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: JohnZ on June 28, 2013, 02:08:51 PM
Thanks John,

It's probably safe to assume that this spec didn't change much between '67 and '69...?   :)

It might have, but I doubt it; however, not all pulleys were released by the same engineer, and they may have had different concerns relative to appearance or corrosion protection. Without looking at each pulley drawing, you can't tell.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 28, 2013, 02:41:35 PM
you're right John.. :)
- experienced engineers generally begin with past designs, look at what's been done before, and verify that it's good w/o problems and doesn't need changes
- 'younger', less experienced engineers sometimes like to ignore past designs and history, and do everything 'anew'... 
:)

That said, do you have similar GM requirements spec information for '69 pulleys, in particular the smog pulley?
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: william on June 28, 2013, 05:45:31 PM
Engineers do not always have the last word. Those who work in sourcing will tell you there is continual pressure to reduce costs. Generally mentioned in your goals for the year. Nothing is sacred in that endeavor. If you have to go back to engineering and have some spec changed that does not affect form, fit or function [like plating] that will save 10 per part so be it.

The '458' AIR pulley went from phosphate with a hard-stamp part number to painted with an ink-stamped part number. Maybe the source changed; maybe some buyer at Chevy gave the supplier a new cost target. Meet it or lose the business.

Today there are entire departments that determine what parts and tooling should cost before a supplier sees a drawing. Very tough dealing with the auto industry.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: jdv69z on June 28, 2013, 07:01:30 PM
Very tough dealing with the auto industry.

Wonder how many went out of business trying to be the low cost supplier to the auto industry.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: JohnZ on June 29, 2013, 06:53:15 PM
Very tough dealing with the auto industry.

Wonder how many went out of business trying to be the low cost supplier to the auto industry.

Plenty - it's always been a cut-throat business, but today it's more than just cost - suppliers have to meet quality and delivery goals as well, and continuous improvement in all categories is expected.

"One of the best ways to become a millionaire supplier is to start as a billionaire supplier."  :-)
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28freak on June 29, 2013, 07:01:53 PM
Very tough dealing with the auto industry.

Wonder how many went out of business trying to be the low cost supplier to the auto industry.

Plenty - it's always been a cut-throat business, but today it's more than just cost - suppliers have to meet quality and delivery goals as well, and continuous improvement in all categories is expected.

"One of the best ways to become a millionaire supplier is to start as a billionaire supplier."  :-)

Nice one John.
Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: william on June 29, 2013, 08:02:15 PM
I have a book about Honda and how they transitioned from making motorcycles to cars. They interviewed a supplier that had shipped 316,000 pc of a particular part to the Ohio plant. Of those 44 were rejected. That's .0001%. Honda graded their quality "satisfactory, not outstanding."

The book was written in 1988. Probably not good enough today.

Title: Re: 69 Z 302 pulley finishes
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 29, 2013, 10:21:40 PM
That was back in the 'Quality Circle' days... :)