CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rick68 on February 16, 2013, 03:18:12 AM
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Has anyone gotten information from the NCIB before?Do you have to be in law inforcement/investigator to get info from them?
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Are you referring to the NICB? National Insurance Crime Bureau?
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Sorry.Yes I am referring to the NICB.
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How to Become a Member-Only User
from the NICB website:
"Access to the members' section is only available to current NICB members. Law enforcement is not eligible for members' access.
If you are already a member and would like to obtain access or have misplaced your login information, contact NICB Technical Support at 800-447-6282, ext. 7003 or techsupport@nicb.org. If you know your user ID but not your password, click here.
NICB membership is open to insurance companies licensed in any of the 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or the insular possessions of the United States as well as auto rental companies, auto finance companies, auto auctions and certain self-insured entities may be eligible for membership in the NICB. For more information, contact Kym Forester at kforester@nicb.org or 714-277-3611."
I didn't check, but from the above, I'd guess there's a significant fee for membership.
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The NCRS has access, wonder if the CRG or American Camaro Club could gain access.
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Anybody can run the NICB report that indicates prior damage or loss - are you saying that NCRS can run the NICB report that shows the delivering dealer?
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The majority of the available former NICB records were inherited by the merger of the former National Automobile Theft Bureau (NATB) which merged with another not for profit the Insurance Crime Prevention Institute (ICPI) in 1992. Both had vehicle fraud databases one better then the other.
NICB has already converted and sanitized the merger databases as per Federal Privacy act requirements and that data is available to anyone at the national title clearing house. http://www.vehiclehistory.gov/ And NICB runs the VinCheck web-site https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck
The major problem is that many of the records were only paper based and time got to them before they could be converted to microfiche and have been lost to time. Or were trapped in ancient computer systems long viable, or were reduced to statistics on IBM punch cards as most of the early 70's data was. That being said the fact is records are still being added to the national database in in some case older ones that have been able to be pulled off microfiche stores, but these are low priority projects.
Each division at GM was responsible for archiving assembly records, some did a better job such as Cadillac which has records for almost every vehicle produced from the early 1900's whereas Chevrolet had no real retention policy, if the records survived in most case it was due to individuals making that decision. Corvette owners were a unique marketing group and that assembly plant retained more records then other Chevy plants did.
So the long and the short of it is that even if you have access to the raw data as a member, the vehicles you would want are not in there - unless they were reported stolen at some point before 1992 or were wrecked and totaled.
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Do you think the services offered to produce a VIN history report (example: InstaVin) would include cars made prior to when a 'title' began to be used?
Mike
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Corvette owners were a unique marketing group and that assembly plant retained more records then other Chevy plants did.
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Corvette production moved in 1981 from St Louis to Bowling Green KY. The records from St Louis are apparently *gone*.. but BG has all their records (but only since '81)..
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Do you think the services offered to produce a VIN history report (example: InstaVin) would include cars made prior to when a 'title' began to be used?
Mike
My understanding is that the original data was only scrubbed of names and address information to comply with Federal Privacy Act regulations, so if the shippers record was there it should still be there. I know it is there on newer vehicles.
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The NCRS has access, wonder if the CRG or American Camaro Club could gain access.
Nope, the NCRS does NOT have access; the NICB isn't interested in anyone having access other than the insurance industry and law enforcement.
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How is the NCRS getting all the info for delivering dealers and etc for all these cars?
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NCRS has permission to use the GM shipping data records. Those records are the property of GM; it took over five years once the information was located to get GM permission to use it. The associated expense for turning the microfiche into a searchable file was absorbable by NCRS only because of their structure and size. Just the microfiche does not provide the end answer NCRS also needed access to the GM dealer directories which was another stumbling block as they are often incomplete due to poor maintenance and file retention, dealer zones and numbers changed often with simple management change so there are multiple directories for multiple years. :) John Z can probably expalin the dealer directory issue better than I, bottom line its an extrapolation from two different sources that reasults in the information supplied by NCRS to Corvette owners even those records have holes and are missing before 1962 and afeter 1975.
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Thank you for that explanation, i was under the (wrong) impression they had gained access to the NICB.
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There was a time when your friendly detective, police officer, law enforcement official could access some type of record from NICB. Today I think it requires a case assignment/number and any officer or other found trying to access the stuff without proper authorization faces severe penalties.
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In some states if you have a shop that repairs autos you can get a NICB under a certain set of circumstances.
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Re: NCIB
« Reply #14 on: Today at 12:22:27 AM »
Reply with quote
There was a time when your friendly detective, police officer, law enforcement official could access some type of record from NICB. Today I think it requires a case assignment/number and any officer or other found trying to access the stuff without proper authorization faces severe penalties.
I can concur and can personally testify that is the case that rsinor states above.
Back in the 90's I had a job working in the Traffic division as an engineer. Of course I became friends with several of the police officers I worked with and some how one day one of them was talking with me about finding the original owner etc.,etc.. and he ran the VIN for that car for me. If I remember correctly it only provided me the dealership where the car was delivered. :-\
Well fast-forward 20+ years and I have several very good friends through out the states who serve on both fronts, as a police officer and as soldiers. I have asked a few of them only to end up with Sorry Joe we can't... it putts our jobs at risk, ...its not worth it...etc...etc..
So if you can get that done you really know a VIP somebody and owe them a huge favor... needless to say I began to realize that I was not just asking for a simple check the numbers... I felt bad about even asking my buddies... so that is why I can concur...
but personally even though we probably can't ever go back to those days of innocence ... I feel that everywhere you turn there is Chicken Little "the sky is falling' cry...IMHO that results in over kill and craziness... sigh..
I was thinking... (watch out, dangerous shaky stuff ) LOL ;D Could there be some discussion and investigation of the possibilities of having CRG approach them from a business point of view?
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I have gotten an nicb, and the print out as well. I had a copy up for reference, and almost had a deal done with car fax and the agency that runs that portion of nicb. I was even to the point of working with them to set pricing and made the mistake of posting on a car site for opinions on pricing (not this site) and the nicb actually got a call complaining.
They shut me and the carfax deal down quicker than you can blink.
The cop did indeed get in trouble.
Fwiw, not only does my paperwork detail delivering dealer, there is also a horsepower line on the form!
RichP
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Fwiw, not only does my paperwork detail delivering dealer, there is also a horsepower line on the form!
RichP
However, the horsepower number is taken from the MSO, and is "Taxable Horsepower", not actual horsepower; taxable hp is strictly a function of bore size, and is between 40 and 50.
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Mine was blank on that line. Bummer. Would be awesome info to get. Really wish someone would be able to make this happen, but as has been said, it looks like they are not only not interested, but openly hostile to the idea of releasing this information.
RichP
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Would your own insurance agent be able to gain access to NICB records?
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Not that i know of. Only a leo that is in traffic, and a supervisor at that. Like has been been said, they have to enter a case number as well.
What was crazy for me was that my car was actually stolen at one time!
We thought mine might have been a baldwin motion, it came back as curry chevrolet not far from motion. So, they do help in that regard.
Its actually a 3rd party, iso, that runs the computer database mining for nicb, they are the ones that we "almost" had access via their agreement with nicb, bringing in carfax as a partner. My computer company was going to write the app between iso and carfax. Once nicb got wind of the complaint, they quickly put the kabash on iso, who then cut off the deal with carfax.
When i get a min ill post the info to iso in case someone in the future can make something happen.
Rich
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So, these reports I see you can buy based on your supplied VIN don't include data as mention in this discussion?
For $6 dollars I was tempted to buy a report for my VIN but was curious if it was worth the money.
Mike
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It will tell you the REPORTED damage/theft history of your car.
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So, these reports I see you can buy based on your supplied VIN don't include data as mention in this discussion?
For $6 dollars I was tempted to buy a report for my VIN but was curious if it was worth the money.
It will tell you the REPORTED damage/theft history of your car.
Which is basically the same thing you can get for free HERE (https://www.nicb.org/theft_and_fraud_awareness/vincheck/vincheck).
Ed
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Hi Ed,
If it's free then I can afford it ;)
I had seen that URL before and all it provided was that my VIN was neither a total loss or listed in any theft records.
I was more curious of it's history of previous owners beyond those I know of now.
Thanks,
Mike
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Hi Ed,
If it's free then I can afford it ;)
Mike
Not trying to hijack this thread but, speaking of for free!
We thought mine might have been a baldwin motion, it came back as curry chevrolet not far from motion. So, they do help in that regard.
Rich
It is my understanding Joel Rosen can tell you if your car was Motion car or not for a slightly more than for free figure.
It is also my understanding that not all Motion cars were Baldwin-Motion, in other words he would convert a car you purchased at another dealership???
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Correct. Cars would sometimes come from all over the country to be modified.
I recall one a 69 came out of TN in 74 to be modified. Making it a Day 1500 or so car. :)
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The domain for the ISO company is
http://www.iso.com . maybe someone can see if they can make anything happen.
Yes, we know about Joel. He was paid the fee, and would not give a written letter either way (yes or no) all we got for the fee was a verbal "maybe". This was previous to the NICB report. I would have been ok with a no letter, but he refused and still refuses to put in writing either way (or even put the maybe in writing).
Now that I know for sure the car was intended to be delivered to Curry, it is probably a day 2 or Curry brought to Motion car. Not to hijack the thread. Jerry's looked at the car and certified it for the X66D80 portion and some of the cool items on it. Ill post more when it's done.
Back to NICB, I was excited to have gotten as far as I did. If anyone takes a crack at it I would be more than happy to share the contacts that I made as well as the carfax contacts I had at that time (a few years ago).
Initially, car fax was very interested as this fit well into their business model. Once NICB sent a cease and desist order though, everyone got real interested in letting this drop. :)
RichP
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Would your own insurance agent be able to gain access to NICB records?
Yes and no. Underwriters for the major insurance companies feed data to NICB and have access to the database, but the average retail agent does not have access. And again if your vehicle did not produce any records on the government site, it is not in the NICB database to begin with.
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So, these reports I see you can buy based on your supplied VIN don't include data as mention in this discussion?
For $6 dollars I was tempted to buy a report for my VIN but was curious if it was worth the money.
Mike
Yes and No. If the shippers records was there in the first place the data was sanitized to comply with the Privacy Act. Depending on who did the purge, some records only had the name and addresses purged on the shippers record,while others the entire shippers record was removed. The sanitizing was farmed out to different contractors and each ran different scripts to create the load out. Again if your vehicle was ever reported stolen, or was involved in an accident you have a better chance of finding it still in the database.
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Do you think its possible that they might have an original backup copy of that original data somewhere even thought they did the purge?
Also I don't understand why they are so protective of this information, maybe I'm just not seeing it but I cant see how it would be bad if it was shared...
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The purge was an electronic process of the existing database(s), in which the names and addresses were deleted, and the new database that process created made available to the public. The only difference between the existing NICB database and the national version is that NICB can still see names and addresses as well as police case theft and recovery data which is not in the public database.
Paper records do pop-up from time to time but are rare and again usually they have survived because the vehicle(s) was/were stolen, by an target of a task force, more then likely chopped for parts, or exported overseas etc and was part of an investigation, or special statistical and training project and therefore were protected. The majority of the original paper trails are long gone and if they were never transferred to microfiche but as with most of American archives of the late 60's early 70's statistics were just extracted and loaded first on IBM punch cards then computer tape storage the original paper was considered redundant or obsolete and either destroyed or stuffed away and were never maintained with any preventative care. As the years passed by the acid based paper lacking the protection of a true climate controlled dry storage archival center, but more than likely just left in bankers boxes in some unheated warehouse to be forgotten, would fade and yellow out crumble and flake if not already eaten up by critters, bugs and mold.
Our only real hope would to have GM find a long lost and assumed forgotten and destroyed cache of Norwood assembly records. Unlikely as the factory and the majority of the buildings are gone now, and GM divesting itself of real-estate and facilities during bankruptcy. Still hold out hope that maybe in a non owned GM building, or storage bunker, or basement or attic most likely in the Norwood area something exists that someone authorized or not authorized "took" home with them.
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NICB does have old records as I know many people who did get the NICB info on Yenko cars.
I got one about 10 years ago. It was difficult to get and took time and a lot of phone calls.