CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: festival on January 27, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
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As many of you probably know I have written a book documenting the history of the Norwood Ohio GM Assembly Plant. Pre-order sales have vastly exceeded my expectations so –We did the math and calculated that we actually ran out of the first batch of the special paper that will be used for the initial print run with this past Friday’s listing of orders.
All books ordered after 1-25 will ship as part of the second paper order which should only delay shipment by a few of days at the most.
As of right now all orders should ship either at the start of the week of February 4th or if part of the second paper batch- the end of that week.
Ironically John Z’s order will be the first book printed on the second batch of paper. Thanks for the order John! :)
www,norwoodassemblyplant.com
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The web address needs a correction. It has a comma after the www instead of a dot and the link doesn't work until you fix it. I just happened to pick up on it after it failed the first time.
Great Preview and will order.
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What's the scoop about the special paper you mention?
Mike
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www.norwoodassemblyplant.com (no comma this time) Thanks!
On the paper- you have to be picky with the paper you use along with the weight and the fiber direction.
Paper and tight micro fiber makes a big difference when you are looking at the fine detail in photographs and how it prints out.
It all looks good at first glance but when you put a magnifier on it to examine the fine detail you can really tell.
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Based on that explanation how will the second batch with the different paper render images?
Thanks,
Mike
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Mike,
Should be exactly the same. The issue is that the paper I am getting is special order from a vendor with a lead time and I simply did not get enough as I underestimated the pre-order volume on the book.
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just sent an order, it will be a good read i hope, thanks
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Thanks! Got your order. Additional paper has arrived and the next print run is being scheduled now.
Books ordered in the first print run are on schedule to ship by the 4th.
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Just sent in my order as well - look forward to receiving the book.
Richard
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I just selected the video producers that will be doing the official plant history documentary. Yes there will be an upcoming film documentary on the Norwood Plant and its history making operations.
In the tradition of film documentary work pioneered by the likes of Ken Burns- the finished film work will likely appear on either Speed, or the Discovery family of networks when complete.
Filming and interviews will begin at the reunion. I am thinking that if you need a display example for how a car was built then the display cars will provide ample backdrop for the stories of what it was like to build them.
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I just got your book and find it fascinating reading. Always wondered what it was like to work in that type of plant situation and other then the union part it really isn't any different than any other manufacturing business. Some of the places I worked in manufacturing all seem to have that same politics going on, time studies and so on. Somehow I thought it would be a piece of cake to work in a car plant. Heck, in 1972 I almost went to work in the Doraville GM plant in Atlanta, but I went into the Air Force instead.
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Just placed my order, can't wait!
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Shipped today!
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Just ordered my book, look forward to getting the copy.
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I'm taking my time reading it. Just started chapter 6.
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Just ordered one last nite
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I just selected the video producers that will be doing the official plant history documentary. Yes there will be an upcoming film documentary on the Norwood Plant and its history making operations.
In the tradition of film documentary work pioneered by the likes of Ken Burns- the finished film work will likely appear on either Speed, or the Discovery family of networks when complete.
Filming and interviews will begin at the reunion. I am thinking that if you need a display example for how a car was built then the display cars will provide ample backdrop for the stories of what it was like to build them.
The need for top quality cars is confirmed. The producer is looking for the finest restored cars and significant original examples to use for discussion point examples. If you have a car that you would like to enter at the Norwood built exhibition display drop me a PM. ;D
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I received this book for Fathers Day today and must say it is very intersting reading. Not just about the "F" body but the history of the Norwood plant through the decades.
So now it's clear why the trim tag was painted white by the Chevy workers and why the practice was discontinued after 67. But the intersting thing is stepping back and looking at the whole picture as to what else was going on at that time to understand the trim tag spraying was just a small part of a larger technology vs. blue collar picture. I found the Application 35 interesting also and how a car can have an engine installed past the body tag date. Audit and demerit system, etc.....
This is great reading!
Mike
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I just selected the video producers that will be doing the official plant history documentary. Yes there will be an upcoming film documentary on the Norwood Plant and its history making operations.
In the tradition of film documentary work pioneered by the likes of Ken Burns- the finished film work will likely appear on either Speed, or the Discovery family of networks when complete.
Filming and interviews will begin at the reunion. I am thinking that if you need a display example for how a car was built then the display cars will provide ample backdrop for the stories of what it was like to build them.
The need for top quality cars is confirmed. The producer is looking for the finest restored cars and significant original examples to use for discussion point examples. If you have a car that you would like to enter at the Norwood built exhibition display drop me a PM. ;D
can you give me more info on when this will happen and if my schedual permits I might be interested in sending a pic of my white 67 Z/28.It won gold bowtie at carlile in 2009.
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Thanks Mike.. Glad you like it.
Ron,
The event is called the Norwood Gathering and it is part of the Norwood all Plant employee reunion of both Salaried and Union represented employees that worked at Norwood full time. The Gathering is an exhibition showcase of cars all buit at Norwood, and displayed in a stylized Concours d'Elegance format.
The display is inside the Norwood GM employee parking Garage that was built in 1969. All cars are under cover for the event. The All plant reunion of factory workers is held in the same location on the same day as the Gathering.
I posted links to the event in a reply on page 1 of this thread...please have a look.
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No i did not post links... Sorry about that.. Info on this year's event and info from last years event too:
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/522265/2013_Norwood_Assembly_Plant_Re#Post522265
http://camaropacecars.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6211035326/m/8471083536
http://camaropacecars.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6211035326/m/9611056646
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So now it's clear why the trim tag was painted white by the Chevy workers and why the practice was discontinued after 67.
I understand the book credits employee resistance to the new broadcast sheets. But the broadcast sheets had been in place since 1966 model year and the tag was for the Fisher side - the broadcast sheets were for the Chevrolet side.
Early 68's also have white tags. But it was not done consistently in 67 or early 68.
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Hi Kurt,
The tag painting looks to be part of a much larger picture of worker discontent due to a number of factors unfolding at that time ranging from the introduction of new manufacturing processes, new car line (Camaro) introduction (and along with new Camaro RPO’s codes?) plus the consumer demands for the new Camaro that led to increased worker work load to keep up with production pace. The fact that the painting was not done on every tag shows, IMO, it was more of an employee visual aid method and possible show of union “protest” to work conditions and even a resistance to the new broadcast change which they felt was more complex especially with the older workers. Sure, the broadcast sheets began in 1966 but reading the book shows a lot happening around that time to place more demands on the production line workers that eventually led to the Jan 1967 strike. I don’t think it matters when it was done (Fisher vs. Chevy side) but more of why it was done.
As for appearing in 1968, it may have likely been a carryover practice until the workers realized that the trim tag option codes were no longer printed (to force the issue of using the broadcast sheet) and also the Firebird was slated to begin production at Norwood in 68 (page 102 explains this more clearly).
If anyone has better explanations then feel free to contribute. I’m not plugging the book but it sure does shed light on a much broader picture to see why decisions were made and why things happened the way they did.
Regards,
Mike
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There was no major strikes at Norwood until the 174 day long strike in 1972. There was autohorized strikes in late 68 (after April) around the GM system at 5 plants (Lordstown, Van Noyes, Framingham, St. Louis and Flint). These were the result of GM's effort to speed up production acroos the lines. Norwood was not affected. The firebird did not come over to Norwood until April 19th 1969. there may have been plans to bring it over earlier, but it didn't happen, and it finally happened becoause of the reconfiguration of the line needed to begin production of the Vega at Lordstown, and the coming new body style of the Camaro and Firebird for the 1970 model year.
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The display is inside the Norwood GM employee parking Garage that was built in 1969.
Where's the garage located? My daughter lives in Cincy and I've always wondered where the plant was, and if anything remains.
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Hi Mark,
Per the book, there was a Fisher Body strike by Local 674 that lasted 23 days from Jan to Feb 1967. This resulted in layoff notices being issued for the Chevy side because no bodies were not being produced. Major or not, this did have an effect on Norwood output. There were also 2 additional "protest" strikes in 1968 that lasted 24 hours each by the same union. Small yes but it still impacts production.
As for the eventual move of the Firebird, the book too stated it was slated to begin in 68 but as you pointed out it started much later. I was merely referring to the tag painting practice when it stopped in early 68.
Mike
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Early is a relative term, they have been seen as late as November 68 intermittantly (45 years later its hard to tell exactly how many were painted white originally). If it took the Union guys that long to figure out the options weren't on the tags anymore, what does that say?
23 days would mean there was a loss of almost 20,000 cars at capacity, the January and February 67 published VIN numbers do indicate a loss of about 14,000 cars, so something must have been going on in that time frame.
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Late 1968? That seems to go against the grain from what I have always seen reported which was early 68. Like you said, who knows what happend back then.
From what I have read, and think I understand, is the daily production output varied depending to a degree on the "RPO option contents" to deviate from the theoretical output. So, perhaps that would explain the differences between what was produced vs. what capacity was capable of.
Mike
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I'm sorry that's November of 67, 4 months into the 68 production time, November of 68 would have been into the 69 model year. Norwood worked at 912 cars a day every day on a two shift schedule. No variations in speed for option content, only mechanical equipment, or personnel failure (injury) that was what the later strikes at the 5 other facilities, and ultimately the 174 day strike at Norwood was all about.
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25 Jan 67 - Norwood on strike.
20 Feb 67 - Norwood strike ends.
I believe the white tags were to highlight the data. I can't see that as a protest. It did go against Styling intent (firewall blacked out), but there were other marks left on the firewall sometimes. The tag data was only used on the Fisher side and the UIOT was attached to every car body and it was much larger.
The broadcast sheets were for the other side of the wall - it was not related to the Fisher tag codes.
The line speed was constant - it could not be varied. All or nothing.
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Production output can vary as in the number of cars produced in a given period. Think about it, a batch of heavily RPO'd optioned cars should take more time to complete than lesser RPO option cars. Sure it can run constant as far as maintaining line worker efforts, but the net result will definitely vary as to how may cars per hour are produced even if planning is coordinated in an efficient way. The book discusses the planning to maintain a balance between under and over cycling. Interesting reading indeed.
Mike
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Wow! Always wanted to understand what it was like. Thanks so much. Just placed order!
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Balancing station workload on the line is a constant issue, today and then.
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I think we should look into and discuss the possibility that they may have painted the trim tags that got the white with a dusting of black at the end.. I have seen a lot of unrestored cars with just the letters showing white until its thoroughly cleaned.. maybe they hit it black again with a cheap spray bomb.. Just saying.. I'll see if I have any pictures to share with that look.. that would make sense if someone was concerned about The Styling.. because that makes sense.
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Pix
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Production output can vary as in the number of cars produced in a given period. Think about it, a batch of heavily RPO'd optioned cars should take more time to complete than lesser RPO option cars. Sure it can run constant as far as maintaining line worker efforts, but the net result will definitely vary as to how may cars per hour are produced even if planning is coordinated in an efficient way. Mike
Nope. Option workload/content/mix didn't affect output - the line ran at 57 per hour, every hour, every shift, with scheduling and manpower adjustments made to accommodate forecast variations. The line only stopped for mechanical breakdowns or emergencies.
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Can't vouch for originality for any of these pix but they are consistant with having black over some white.. the cars are NOT minty cars so I wonder why anyone would ever has dusted the tag aftersale
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Production output can vary as in the number of cars produced in a given period. Think about it, a batch of heavily RPO'd optioned cars should take more time to complete than lesser RPO option cars. Sure it can run constant as far as maintaining line worker efforts, but the net result will definitely vary as to how may cars per hour are produced even if planning is coordinated in an efficient way. Mike
Nope. Option workload/content/mix didn't affect output - the line ran at 57 per hour, every hour, every shift, with scheduling and manpower adjustments made to accommodate forecast variations. The line only stopped for mechanical breakdowns or emergencies.
So what you are saying, John, is scheduling was done in such as away as to balance (if that is the right word) cars with different RPO's option levels to spread out across the lines to acheive a fairly constant CPH's per line?
Mike
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I think we should look into and discuss the possibility that they may have painted the trim tags that got the white with a dusting of black at the end.. I have seen a lot of unrestored cars with just the letters showing white until its thoroughly cleaned.. maybe they hit it black again with a cheap spray bomb.. Just saying.. I'll see if I have any pictures to share with that look.. that would make sense if someone was concerned about The Styling.. because that makes sense.
My feeling is maybe the dealer sprayed over the "eye sore" with black before handing it to the customer.
Mike
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Production output can vary as in the number of cars produced in a given period. Think about it, a batch of heavily RPO'd optioned cars should take more time to complete than lesser RPO option cars. Sure it can run constant as far as maintaining line worker efforts, but the net result will definitely vary as to how may cars per hour are produced even if planning is coordinated in an efficient way. Mike
Nope. Option workload/content/mix didn't affect output - the line ran at 57 per hour, every hour, every shift, with scheduling and manpower adjustments made to accommodate forecast variations. The line only stopped for mechanical breakdowns or emergencies.
So what you are saying, John, is scheduling was done in such as away as to balance (if that is the right word) cars with different RPO's option levels to spread out across the lines to acheive a fairly constant CPH's per line?
Mike
If I read John's assembly process report correctly, that was exactly the purpose of the Chevrolet side body bank; cars could be re-arranged so as to balance the work load on the assembly. Line speed was, as John says, constant.
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There was only one line, the only place to shift the order once a body started down the Fisher side was at GMs scheduling bank. Fisher scheduled builds and balanced theload on their side based on their needs in building the body tub, like no convertibles closer than 12 to 15 bodies, no Vinyl tops closer than 8 to 10 bodies, etc. GM had different scheduling issues, like A/C, R/S, console cars, but could care less about a convertible, or vinyl top equipped car so they needed the scheduling bank to shuffle the cars around to suit their needs.
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I have seen a lot of unrestored cars with just the letters showing white until its thoroughly cleaned.. maybe they hit it black again with a cheap spray bomb.. Just saying.. I'll see if I have any pictures to share with that look.. that would make sense if someone was concerned about The Styling.. because that makes sense.
I have seen some, but often they are questionable datapoints - like that one looks like the booster got sprayed too.
None that have been clearly original survivors.
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EXACTLY. there always seem to be a reason against.. I just find it odd so many get what seems to be a poorly adhered coat of black over white.. Let me know if you can find any true survivors with evidence. I would be fun to find out one guy at inspection was put off by the guys pray bombing the tag :)
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My own car at purchase
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After a soaking in Super Clean then pressure/steam wash.. doesn't prove anything but I find it interesting :)
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This is definately a question (trim tag spray) to present to the line workers at next months gathering in Norwood.
It will be great if one of them actually was involved one way or another with this practice to give insight.
Mike
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Just confirmed that 1967 pilot car #10 will be displayed next month.... It is a factory 283 car.
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Production output can vary as in the number of cars produced in a given period. Think about it, a batch of heavily RPO'd optioned cars should take more time to complete than lesser RPO option cars. Sure it can run constant as far as maintaining line worker efforts, but the net result will definitely vary as to how may cars per hour are produced even if planning is coordinated in an efficient way. Mike
Nope. Option workload/content/mix didn't affect output - the line ran at 57 per hour, every hour, every shift, with scheduling and manpower adjustments made to accommodate forecast variations. The line only stopped for mechanical breakdowns or emergencies.
So what you are saying, John, is scheduling was done in such as away as to balance (if that is the right word) cars with different RPO's option levels to spread out across the lines to acheive a fairly constant CPH's per line?
Mike
See Mark's post #40. There was only ONE line on each side - Fisher set up their build schedule based on balancing manpower cycles for their high-content options, and built, painted, trimmed, and shipped the body to Chevrolet. Chevrolet set up their schedule in the body bank, and released units to meet their requirements for balancing manpower cycles; once the unit was released from the Body Bank, it was "locked in sequence" from that point all the way to the end of the Final Line, and the line ran continuously at 57 per hour. Fisher Body and Chevrolet, although they were on the same piece of property, were two separate GM divisions, and only communicated with each other at the Production Manager level; at the hourly worker level, they were two separate worlds.
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John or Mark,
What is confusing me is this past post about body banks which gives me a vision of parallel lines with cars coming off each one: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7175.0
Maybe I am mixing up line and banks? Are they the same or separate?
Thanks,
Mike
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At the St. Louis Assembly Plant, the body bank looked like a series of about 4 parallel lines full of bodies on fixtured car tops. Bodies could be moved to the end of their respective line and then transferred sideways over to the conveyor line that allowed them to go through the wall. The bank was located between Fisher and Chevrolet, but on the Fisher side of the wall. The hole in the wall was about wide enough to fit two cars through it side by side, so you could walk through the opening while a body was coming through. I worked on the Chevrolet side as a co-op student - looked through the access door many times, but never really worked over on the Fisher side. So I really don't know how the Fisher/Chevrolet production was coordinated.
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Hi Bergy,
OK...like Jell-O, this is starting to Jell in my head. I'm looking at the book (page 91) and it matches what you had described. It's getting clearer now.
The parallel banks will release a body onto the conveyor, which is a single line, with the cars now in series for assembly completion?
I wish I were there to see this when it existed.
Thanks,
Mike
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I don't have the book Mike (gotta get it). At St. Louis, when the bodies got on the Chevrolet side of the wall they were locked in sequence. Seems like there were sometimes one or two bodies on car tops in the aisle there though - don't know why or how how they got set aside.
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I really want to see that pilot car!. I was in Boxborough Mass around maybe 1987 ish.. My buddie was looking for a Camaro and brought me to see this taken apart super rust free green convertible.. It had few options and at the time I thought the wrong motor.... Everything I new at the time from books etc was telling me that the date correct 283 did not belong to the car.. He never bought it.. SOMEBODY is sitting on that car! I should try to guess what house we went to.. God forbid..
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Hi Bergy,
OK...like Jell-O, this is starting to Jell in my head. I'm looking at the book (page 91) and it matches what you had described. It's getting clearer now.
The parallel banks will release a body onto the conveyor, which is a single line, with the cars now in series for assembly completion?
I wish I were there to see this when it existed.
Thanks,
Mike
That's correct - that's how it worked in all of the Fisher/Chevrolet assembly plants - one line on the Fisher side, body schedule bank at Chevrolet, followed by one line through Chevrolet Trim-Chassis-Final to the end of the line.
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I work in production for over 26 years under mangers you would not want your worst enemy working for. So when I heard a Portland, Oregon area chevy dealership received a 69 Camaro with a foul smell coming from inside, and found a half eating sandwich in the door. I can understand some of the things that went on at the GM factories.
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Back then, most managers I was aware of, including my dad, and a gentleman I became fond of after he retired where I used to work, all had what I called, as well as others I grew up with, baseball bat mentalities. Those guys were pretty tough cookies.
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Back then, most managers I was aware of, including my dad, and a gentleman I became fond of after he retired where I used to work, all had what I called, as well as others I grew up with, baseball bat mentalities. Those guys were pretty tough cookies.
Sounds like people I grew up with from Brooklyn ;D
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Picked up a copy here in Frederick this weekend. Thanks Phillip.
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The 2013 Norwood Gathering Showcase Exposition display was full..but I just had a two car last minute cancellation - so I have two spots that just opened up. PM Me or shoot me an E-mail if you want in. Breaking....Chevrolet (GM) just announced that they are attending!
The line up of cars for the showcase is just fantastic 67-70 Z/28's, and SS cars are well represented.
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Pretty interesting reading about how the painting process evolved ......
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Event showcase is again full. Thanks for the support!! Safe towing everyone.
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Phil,Thanks for letting me be part of the reunion (Norwood Gathering). It really was a great event, well organized, and very well attended by assembly line workers. It really was more of an event for these old guys than the us car owners-restorers. My thanks to you for putting this all together. The Friday night panel discussion went by so quick and was very enlightening with the foreman or managers that were speaking. On my slow ride home I thought of 10 more questions I should have asked. I did ask about the white paint on the 67-68 trim tags but no one seemed to remember why it was painted white. I talked to a guy that was working on the beginning of the Chevrolet assembly side and he remembered seeing the painted tag but had no other info on it. I heard so many nice stories though out the day from those guys and they each had fond memories of working at Norwood, most guys I talked with worked for GM for 30 years or more. I was telling someone it took me 45 min. to get my steering column in the day before I left and a former working standing there told me he put 40 columns in an hour, just one of the many nice conversations I had that day. I lost the few pictures I took on Saturday, so if any one else attending has any please post them. The guys told me to come back after I finish assembling the car but I think they got a kick out of seeing as a partial car.
Phil I hope you can continue the reunion event and I would be honored to participate again. Thanks. George.
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George,
The photographer has images of your car, and the film crew as well. I should have the still images this week-I will get a couple over to you right away.
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George and his great restoration project car at move in in the main Norwood garage built in early 1969. George's car was one of the Highlights of the event to be sure!
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Phill thanks for posting that picture. George
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Jeff (SS427copo) posted a bunch of pictures on the Yenko site if anyone's interested. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/535428/Norwood_Reunion_Photo_Tour#Post535428
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The Meet the Makers forum was well attended by plant personnel.
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George and team rolling into position for display
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Engine detail.... Project cars are loved by the retirees
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Line up of 67, 68, and 69 Z's. Not too common a sight I wouldn't think.
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Killer 1969 Z/28... WOW!
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Line up of 67, 68, and 69 Z's. Not too common a sight I wouldn't think.
Whos 68? Would love to see more pics of that car.