CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: dannystarr on January 24, 2013, 06:25:25 AM
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WOW, this has been around a while and I forgot about it. It's making the rounds again. Do yourself a favor and check it out. What a mess for sure..... Danny
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo
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It's a sad time we live in these days. Greed is running wild.
China's military and space technology has grown enormously and will eventually overshadow and easily trump our ability. China has learned over night what took our manufacturing techniques decades to develop and perfect. We are living in the era of corporate greed to raise the bottom line at any expense including America jobs. If jobs aren't sent off shore then American jobs are replaced with cheaper cost visa workers (I am speaking from personal experience). All for the interest of the share holders profits.
I want to be alive when this all backfires on the US and its corporations if and when a war breaks out and China is either backing our foes or directly involved such as was the case in Korea, and they confiscate the US factories and defeat our military. I'll be especially looking forward to hearing the corporate millionaires beg Washington to do something about it. This is a very sore subject with me because I am indirectly involved first hand with this shameful practice and I see, hear and know what the corporate whores who make the millions do.
My family has been a GM loyalist for decades, but no longer. I'll be switching my loyalty to either Ford or Chrysler though some of their manufacturing plants are in other countries as well but at least it's not a "Thanks America for the bailout.... now we move your jobs to China" in your face. They can take their new China made cars and "CHEV IT"
Mike
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Seems to me there were a lot more jobs saved than just those of the corporate millionaires. Wonder how much the president of the UAW earns? The reality is that we are all in competition whether we like it or not. If someone or some company can produce a product that is either cheaper, or better than others, those individuals/companies that cannot will be left behind. It's the reality of life. If someone can come up with a way that I can do whatever it is that I want all the time, and still earn a living, sign me up. I haven't found that utopia yet, nor do I expect to.
Jimmy V.
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China.... I had several major publishers after the book but in the end all wanted to print and bind in PRC. I said NO.
100% made in the USA at:
www.norwoodassemblyplant.com
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Cheaper and better don't necessarily go hand in hand. And if GM can build them cheaper that doesn't mean it's better. Look at the things sold at Harbor Freight for example...all Chinese made and at best they can be considered disposable due to the low quality in build, materials or other things. Many of the imported auto parts made in China do not hold up as long in service as an American part. This is from personal experience in my 40 years of car ownership and doing the work myself. Also, no matter how low cost GM will pay for building a car, I doubt the cost savings will be passed on to the US consumers. Much of the Harley parts I get now are made in China and you can see Harley lowered the quality bar in that area.
Today it's all about making profits and more of it at any expense. I'm not against making profits but the culture today is way out of control when it comes to greed and the America people are paying for it. But nothing will change because corporations have a strangle hold on Washington. When the US gets defeated by China either militarily or industrially (maybe both)then Washington will eventually wake up.
Sorry for the rant but I have witnessed this going on for 15+ years and seen people lose their jobs only to take much lower paying ones with many outside their expertise , losing homes and marriage breakups and some commit suicide because they could not get another job after searching for years.
Mike
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Mike, I understand where you are coming from as far as the individuals losing jobs, etc. I know it's tough out there. But as far as I know, the only way forward is to keep working hard, and becoming better at what you do. Because the other guys are doing it. Now it's the Chinese. 35 years ago, it was the Japanese. There was an adjustment that had to be made by American Car companies when that occurred as well. But we have all been the beneficiaries of that in the quality of the cars we can purchase today.
Jimmy V.
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If someone or some company can produce a product that is either cheaper, or better than others, those individuals/companies that cannot will be left behind. It's the reality of life.
The main problem is that companies that want to produce a product that is cheaper and better (manufacturing) have a nearly impossible time competing with 50 cents an hour for labor, and disregard of labor and environmental laws. The playing field is not close to being even.
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If someone or some company can produce a product that is either cheaper, or better than others, those individuals/companies that cannot will be left behind. It's the reality of life.
The main problem is that companies that want to produce a product that is cheaper and better (manufacturing) have a nearly impossible time competing with 50 cents an hour for labor, and disregard of labor and environmental laws. The playing field is not close to being even.
There's truth in what you are saying. But the playing field never has been level, nor will it ever be. Still comes back to having to get better or get left behind. It's just a fact of life, whether we like it not.
Jimmy V.
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I always felt the US was better in many areas. We become the world leader by being better than others and now these countries are learning our ways because the methods and technology are handed to them to make goods cheaper off shore. Not sure how you can compete with cheap low cost labor. Even the visa workers that come here and hired over US workers are payed much less (I know because I work along side them where I work). Sure ,we can take a pay cut to stay attractive in the job market but housing and the cost of living will certainly not go down to make living a non-struggle way of life. Then there are the tax write offs going off shore and also loop holes corporations take advantage of going off shore (I have witnessed that). It still comes down to excessive greed.
This is certainly a complex problem and can be discussed for days so I'll back off my rants :).
Mike
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There's truth in what you are saying. But the playing field never has been level, nor will it ever be. Still comes back to having to get better or get left behind. It's just a fact of life, whether we like it not.
Jimmy V.
You are right, I don't like it, but it's a fact of life. Cheap foreign junk is everywhere and I even have it on one of my 69 Camaros (the clone). On the clone car, if I couldn't find a made in the USA part, on went the foreign part from Rick's or HBC. Blech.
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But nothing will change because corporations have a strangle hold on Washington.
Not true. No one has less influence in Washington than U.S. manufacturing companies, as our legislators and policymakers in Washington have no interest whatsoever in supporting manufacturing - they don't understand what it takes to be competitive in Manufacturing, and don't want to be drawn into a public debate that highlights their ignorance.
It's a world economy, whether you like it or not, and we're not going to get any help in the form of a Manufacturing policy from Washington. In the meantime, deal with it.
GM has sold more Buicks in China than they have in the U.S. for MANY years - this isn't "new news".
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With the highest corporate tax rate in the world and some of the toughest regulations, why would any company want to stay here? Washington is at war with the hand that feeds them. If a company doesn't make a profit, there is no reason for it to exist. If we want American companies and American jobs, we have to make the US a place that companies can and will want to base manufacturing in.
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But nothing will change because corporations have a strangle hold on Washington.
Not true. No one has less influence in Washington than U.S. manufacturing companies, as our legislators and policymakers in Washington have no interest whatsoever in supporting manufacturing - they don't understand what it takes to be competitive in Manufacturing, and don't want to be drawn into a public debate that highlights their ignorance.
It's a world economy, whether you like it or not, and we're not going to get any help in the form of a Manufacturing policy from Washington. In the meantime, deal with it.
GM has sold more Buicks in China than they have in the U.S. for MANY years - this isn't "new news".
I respectfully disagree...true. I've been in the computer field for 40 years and have seen manufacturing in the US vanish and almost overnight. If people don't think there is any influence then all they have to look at HP and Microsoft who after firing many Americas and outsouring jobs overseas.what isn't off shored they constantly lobby in DC to try and increase visa limits to import more foreign worked into the US. So the H1B program which was once used to find hard to fill positions for specialized talent is now the America job replacement program. Washington knows this abuse is going on and is powerless to do anything about it. I see it at work daily. I won't even mention the oil companies influence in Washington. We all know too well about that. ALEC is another example of corporate influence in policy making. The list can get lengthy.
But yes, I deal with it like you and everybody else. We have no choice anymore. Finding "Made in the USA" anything is like finding NOS parts. ;)
Mike
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With the highest corporate tax rate in the world and some of the toughest regulations, why would any company want to stay here? Washington is at war with the hand that feeds them. If a company doesn't make a profit, there is no reason for it to exist. If we want American companies and American jobs, we have to make the US a place that companies can and will want to base manufacturing in.
I agree. The tax system needs to be revamped and loop holes closed to make the US attractive to do business in again. Too much corporate tax dodging is being done. Read up on how Microsoft and HP do it to dodge taxes while keeping jobs off shore. It will make your head spin...it sure made the Senate Subcommittee investigations take notice.
Mike
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Wow i did not know this... but i am not surprised either... :-\
especially since our political folks have IMHO these days forgotten they took an oath to preserve and protect the US Constitution against all Foreign and Domestic enemies... lately I think a whole mess of them have crossed the line into the enemy category... >:(
so why would they do anything to keep manufacturing here... where we used to make everything... now the excuse is we can go over seas and basically get slave labor.... world economy or not this I think is the down fall of our great nation... it is not about us... and our founding fathers ideals are a thorn to all the others who want it changed... :'(
Lets count some facts:
1) we have lost some of our Freedom of Press... the media reports what they want and how they want it seen... do you really think you are getting the full picture? Ask your self who owns the media reporting source and what their agenda is.
2) We are loosing our Freedom of free speech... why do you think they call it politically correct??? for goodness sake should you say the wrong thing!
3) and now we are likely loosing our other freedoms and our Constitution... especially the right to bear arms...
4) have you noticed that there is always racism, abortion issues, gun issues, gay issues.... why is this???... it is the focus to keep you unfocussed from the real issues... All I have to say is just follow the money...
i did not mean to get on my soap box here... now they'll be looking at me for speaking the truth... LOL anyway we all need to do our part in keeping this country a great nation... we still are the beacon of light in this world... so do your part... ;D
GI Joe
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www.factcheck.org/2012/06/is-gm-becoming-china-motors/
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oh yeah... I should share this for what it is worth...
Every countries population has about 10% of the best and smartest, i.e. your rocket scientist, MD's, PHd's, (Camaro hobbyist... LOL), etc...
now China's 10% is more than all the US population put together...
this little fact brought it in clear for me to see what we are up against...
:o
BTW, I have nothing against the Chinese people, I think they are a good people, very smart and kind...
but Communism is another matter...
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Lots of blame going around, Most people do not understand what they vote for..... they just complain. Please look into your own past votes and see if those are the same people passed all the loopholes and taxbreaks ( not to mention unpaid-for wars ) we are whining about - not just the "hot topic" issues that people remember..... when you buy the lot, you get EVERYTHING inside that lot.
So, It starts with a grain of sand. What is anybody on this thread doing to change these issues? We can start by NOT buying forigen parts. Feel free to pile on. My $ .02.
VT
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obviously this is not an easy topic or question but according to fact check 1/3 is still US GM owned...
I guess they missed the part of the other 2/3 majority owned... I assume not US GM...
You are confused. 1/3 of GM stock is owned by the U.S. Treasury Department, and the other 2/3 of GM stock is owned by individual and institutional investors. Stick with the facts - it makes it easier to understand, in spite of the "conspiracy theorists" who prefer not to deal with the facts, as it distorts their agenda.
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On a better note, according to this months (March) issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines, the next generation Camaro production will be moved from Canada to Lansing.
Per the article "This will make for the first generation Camaro built within the US borders since the Van Nuys plant closed in 1992 and all Camaros since have been built in Canada"
The article further states "Why the move? Manufacturing efficiency. Assembling the next generation Camaro at LGR consolidates rear-drive passenger car assembly with the Cadillac CTS and ATS. This will make for lower capital investments and improve production efficiencies - the Camaro is the only rear wheel drive vehicle built at Oshawa, so building it on line with other rear wheel drive cars makes operational sense."
Mike
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Here is a strange fact, every one minute of every day, someone in China buys a vehicle made by General Motors, hundreds of other American Corporations are mfg. products in China also, and the Chinese people are buying products made by American Corporations, China has a huge population, many times more than ours, they are a new emerging economy and there is a fortune to be made there selling them our products , I am not defending anyone, I hate to see jobs moved there as much as anyone , but things are changing fast.
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If '40 years' is fast, then yes, things are changing fast... In the sixties, American built, and bought, american goods. We tood pride in making them and purchasing and using them. Foreign goods were considered (and were) 'crap'. but by the late 70's, the 'new generation' was coming up, more involved in *self*... they bought what they considered to be the *best*, which mainly was *cheap*. Japanese auto companies had learned from American companies and they were first to market with small cars which got good gas mileage (for the time) and they made great inroads... more and more 'americans' (young one anyway) now considered American cars as 'crap' and bought japanese Hondas in record numbers; that 'change' kept changing, as other industries (TVs, electronics, etc) were shut down in the US and moved to other countries.. Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand, mexico, south america, Canada, etc... this has continued to today where we really aer in a world economy, and the US has to *fight* just to keep a small part in the economic battles. American car companies are now making good cars; better than elsewhere in my opinion with better gas mileage, more power, more everything, but the parts come from *everywhere*... even companies from other countries bring in their parts and 'make' (meaning assemble) the cars here.. so they are 'US made'..
I personally believe we cannot remain (or recover?) our position as the premier world economic power without retaining the ability to manufacture. Americans have always led the way in *design* of new products, but to a great extent, those *ideas* came from our manufacturing floors... where the ideas began and germinated. We must regain our manufacturing capability. We don't have to manufacture *everything*, but we must know HOW to manuafacture *anything*.. and the only way to retain that is to do it..
Just my opinion..
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Just my opinion. American companies (some) got complacent, then offshore companies beat them on price and quality. Sales fell, people lost jobs and blamed the folks who used American technology to beat American companies at their own game. The only way to stay ahead in the global market place is to have a better product. Better can mean price, quality, or both. I lost a great job to some computer programmer in India, twice. If my employers had not remained competitive more jobs would have been lost when they lost market share or folded. It sucks, but it happens. Going back to school in Feb for a new job that won't pay what the old one paid, but it's better than what I have now, and it's going to be real hard to outsource paramedics.
tom
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May not can outsource.....but they can import them and underbid you.
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That's been happen for many years now....no need to outsource immigrants work cheaper and employer doesn't pay workmans comp,ins,ect..... The culprit is "the bottom line" always looking for ways to increase profits..IMO
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'increasing profits' is what business is supposed to be about, but what gets me is WHY does our government make laws that spurs businesses to make decisions that are detrimental to the US and it's citizens?.. do our politicians and lawmakers EVER wear their thinking caps for more than 60 seconds at a time???
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Only when they fall asleep during session!
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In 2011 GM. sold more than 2.5 Million vehicles in China alone, and ,in 2012 the sales numbers were even higher there, THE REST OF THE STORY,, since June 2009 GM has spent over $6.9 Billion in 12 U.S. states to expand operations here, that has created over 17,600 jobs here in the U.S.A., American car builders are building great vehicles , better than the foreign makes,, it seems Toyota has a recall of hundreds of thousands way too often,, there are a lot more facts to the story that GM got a govt. loan and ran off to China than what is being told, or rumored, GM., Ford and Chrysler were already in China for many years before the depression hit us.l