CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: rocco376 on June 04, 2023, 07:46:14 PM
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In the spirit of matching numbers, original/born with drive train, and such, I'd like to start a discussion on 1) Is it proper to call a car "Matching numbers" if the block/trans/rear has been restamped to match? 2) Is it me or does it seem that there are very few original drive train 1st generation Camaros (especially Z28s) as compared to original drive train early Corvettes? Any thoughts on why that is?
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Restamps are taboo for Camaros. Same goes for fake documentation and removing trim tags, or moving them to a different car. I've heard that Corvette judging allows restamping, but not certain. Possibly why there are more so-called numbers matching Vettes.
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As a owner of both First gen Camaros, and a corvette……in many cases corvettes are and were not driven as every day cars when new compared to early Camaro’s that were driven pretty much as an every day car.
More of the original owners for nCorvettes treated them more like specialty cars and they were often not driven in bad weather, also many more owners were older more mature drivers. Thats just my reasoning why more Corvettes held on to their original drive train components.
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Since you asked, there is no “Spirit” for this. There is only fact.
Matching numbers=What the car was equipped with as it rolled off the assembly line. The closest thing to that is a documented part replaced under warranty.
A restamp is a restamp.
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Since you asked, there is no “Spirit” for this. There is only fact.
Matching numbers=What the car was equipped with as it rolled off the assembly line. The closest thing to that is a documented part replaced under warranty.
A restamp is a restamp.
Well said.
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It seems that in the last few years "matching numbers" is exactly that, numbers that match the vehicles build time. Now we have advanced to "born with" meaning exactly that, components the vehicle was built with And yes, the Corvette community does acccept "restamps" which I hope NEVER finds its way into the Camaro community.
Doc
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Thanks for the replies gents. I always thought matching numbers meant what the car left the assembly line with. I learned the hard way that not everybody feels the same way.
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I find today the term "matching numbers" is a rather loose term. It could mean the dates match or the block casting number match. It can even mean it's the way it was when it left the factory. If I hear "born with" or "assm line original", you have a better chance of it being correct but doesn't mean you should assume. I have 2 cars with "born with" drive trains. My 1969 Camaro ss396 & my 1933 Chevrolet Standard sports coupe. Performance car, like Z/28 & 375hp cars, were run harder & were sometimes ordered with taller tail gears. The original engine & trans were gone in my 68 Z/28 before it had 42k miles. I blame that on the factory ordered 4.56 gears. Never been able to locate block or trans in the 47 years I've owned it.....Joe
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The term “Matching numbers” (as far back as 1979 or so when i first heard it) means the engine/trans stamped numbers match the car VIN.
Rocco, did someone get their feelings hurt?
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In the truest sense, a numbers matching car has its original drivetrain, i.e., assembly line installed. Anything else is a sales pitch.
I think one reason for fewer original engine Camaro's compared to Corvette's is due to driving them harder. I'd bet a lot more Camaro's were drag raced than Vette's. Add to that engine swaps for more power or during the gas embargo, high performance engines were swapped for more fuel efficient engines.
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My feelings were certainly hurt, David, and my bank account would've been hurt if not for Kurt, William, and Jerry M. who pointed out that the engine on a "matching numbers" vehicle I was in the process of purchasing, was a restamp.
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My feeling is if you can not say "born with" and hopefully have documentation (even if its a validated 3rd party doc) then there is no question if the block, trans etc came with the car new.
Moral of the story.
Words are just that (words). Sadly there are a lot of crooks in this world trying to make a buck. It takes doing your homework before purchasing anything if you want it to be legit.
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Rocco,
You're one of the few I now know who did research BEFORE deciding whether or not to buy the car. Good for you. Which is worse? Hurt feelings or bank account? 🤔🤔🤔 At least you have experience now. I am curious about the car and what red flagged it.
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I am convinced that when a phrase can be manipulated or otherwise bastardized to profit the seller, it will. "Numbers Matching" at one time was somewhat of a gold standard to mean it left the factory with it. It seems that now it means the numbers match the numbers, nothing more. I'm not sure how "born with" can mean anything other than what it says, but I bet that will (if it hasn't already) be twisted to mean that that part has the metal it was born with or something more ludicrous. I'm waiting for it to get to a court of law to see the outcome.
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Unfortunately, I did not do enough research before purchasing a'69 RS Z/28 project from a knowledgeable dealer. When I posted pictures of the engine block stamp on this site, the previously mentioned gentlemen contacted me and let me know it was restamped. Thankfully, I was able to get my money back, though the dealer said the numbers do match, and I never said I wanted a born with drive train. Hence, my original question here.
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I am the third owner of a 1979 Pontiac Trans Am and have all the original documents, which also includes the dealer invoice, warranty repairs and dealer service invoices and didn't check the VIN number on the transmission until I had to replace the starter motor and the number stamped on the Borg Warner Super T-10 matched the VIN number.
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Money back guarantee?? That's a first!!
Are you still looking?
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No money back guarantee-it was a bit contentious to say the least. Still looking-since I was 16 years old in 1979 lol. Thought I finally had "The One".
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"Born With" seems to be the newest most accepted term to imply original installed in the factory, stamped at the factory driveline. Back in the day, it was either Numbers Matching or NOM...Non-Original Motor....in fact, at one point "Numbers Matching" meant EVERYTHING matched - from engine block to all the various components...
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I found an article that appeared in Hagerty in 2004 about the subject of matching numbers:
https://www.hagerty.com/media/buying-and-selling/matching-numbers-make-collector-cars-more-valuable/
Hagerty mentions that having matching numbers could significant make the vehicle more valuable.