CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: ko-lek-tor on March 28, 2015, 02:08:09 PM
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Hmmm, too much huffing on the thinner fumes? Stripe and emblem WAY off (not even an SS)! Kind of person who would buy this would say, "Got me a Camero Sport Special[sic]."
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I do it for a living. You really have to watch some shops, and also alot of owners that don't want to pay for quality at the same time so it's kind of a rock in a hard place. What you show above is a rookie mistake. Either the owner didn't want to spring for a cheap stencil kit that lays it all out for you (correctly) or the shop suggested they could do it on their own and just didn't have a clue as to how it should be.
I'm doing a Mach 1 for customer as we speak and he doesn't want to spend $40 for a stencil kit on the black out hood ::) Just another case where the customer takes the car this far and then starts penny pinching.
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Wow, I am speechless! Other side is just as bad. Funny the stripe is flat, maybe it is a vinyl stripe! That could be removed, still have to fix the emblem holes
(http://smokymountaintraders.com/images/carphotos/19691081147_1089_5.jpg)
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Badstrip and emblem placement, but you gotta admit the N66 wheels look awesome -
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I like the (N66) wheels. In the ford circles we call them magnum 500's, they also offered them on Mopars with an even longer center cap.
They even make an aftermarket 17" alloy version for all 3 makes now.
I am actually running a newer modern version of this wheel on one of my rides.
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When I had the 68 repainted, the shop manager made pictures and took measurements on the original paint, etc. and gave me the documentation before they started for approval. Not a bad idea....
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When I had the 68 repainted, the shop manager made pictures and took measurements on the original paint, etc. and gave me the documentation before they started for approval. Not a bad idea....
That was obviously a meticulous shop manager, who desires to make/keep his customers happy! AND an excellent idea for any shop (whether it's your own or a commercial shop) to follow... :) (Some of us know this.. but still get in a hurry at times and forget the 'before photos'.. thinking.. 'I KNOW where they go!".. until 1, 2, 4, or 10 yrs later.. :)
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I have thumb drives full of before and after pics that I keep on file, not only for the car owner, but also to cover my own butt. Luckily I own an original paint Mach 1 so I'll use that for measurements on the customer car I mentioned above. Otherwise you run into issues like I mentioned when customers don't want to spend the money on what's needed. There are other problems I won't get into with this car as well that the customer doesn't want to fix properly, so I document it again to cover myself. It's not always the shop,,,,most people just won't or can't spend the coin. It's not cheap to own these cars anymore. Unfortunately you spend a small fortune just to buy a basket case nowadays, and then people quickly find out what a "real" restoration costs, so corners are cut, or the project sits and doesn't get finished.
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X33RS.. Where are you located with your shop?
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Arizona,
shoot me a pm with an email and I'll send some pics of stuff I've done.
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I want to see, too. PM sent.
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Arizona,
shoot me a pm with an email and I'll send some pics of stuff I've done.
Arizona is too far away for north Alabama for me to use; my email is in my profile.
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It's the same problem everywhere with skilled labor....most only care about getting it done asap..paid and move on to the next quickest payday!! The collision shops take on restoration work to help during the slow times and the bodyman or tech has no idea what the vintage car will need to be correct without spending some research time and that costs!!
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Big shops suffer like that because of the volume they handle and the overhead they cover. It's the insurance work for them that really pays the bills so most shops don't care to take labor intensive restoration work. Major shops that do take on classic car restoration work and specialize in that can cost $100 an hour labor or more plus parts. Most people just aren't willing or simply can't afford that. I do one car at a time so I can devote 100% of my attention, research correct finishes etc...to avoid those issues. Not trying to sell myself here, just showing both sides of the coin. It's not always the body shops fault for certain things. There is alot more behind the scenes that reflect some of the poor decision making. I run into it quite often and have actually turned work away if I think the customers decisions are detrimental to the end result. I don't like my name on something that's going to fall apart in 5 years.
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Bentley, aside from the emblem placement and the stripe the paint job looks real good, is this your car?
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Bentley, aside from the emblem placement and the stripe the paint job looks real good, is this your car?
Oh, No, it is not my car. No, my car is in limbo and has been since the first of the year when the guy bailed on finishing the job. Now, it is a half done project. No, this car was on ePay. It just seems so senseless to turn out something like this and that is why I took my car to someone I could trust to do the work right after a lot of setbacks. Just wish he would have finished car as agreed. He told me he was getting out of the resto business as there was no money in that kind of work and he had the car 8 months! The point of this car is if the emblem and stripe are wrong, to me, all the work is suspect as being sub par.
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Bentley, aside from the emblem placement and the stripe the paint job looks real good, is this your car?
Vince, the car is listed on eBay (in-case you're interested)...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro/131469409831?_trksid=p2060778.c100276.m3476&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140725133649%26meid%3De3ddd405f76f410baaa4545fa9cf2047%26pid%3D100276%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D221725446142
;)
Paul
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I have customers who understand the time and money required to do the job right. I've also had one that was trying to save a buck and had the car finished and painted elsewhere after I did the all metal replacement and modifications for fit and gapping. The car then got shipped back to me and I had to repaint parts of it that were done poorly by the other shop. Unfortunately the entire car should be reshot but he cannot afford it. Save a nickel, waste a dollar.
Documenting a build with photos is standard procedure for some. Owners two or more states away can't pop in and they are provided progress photos of the build. I do the same with in or out of state jobs for reasons previously mentioned by X33RS. And if the owner ever sells their car, the buyer can see the build from bare metal to paint.
I know of a shop that bangs out cars to sell at Barret Jackson. Cave and pave jobs. The owner told a customer there was more filler in one fender than in an entire car. But it's B.J. so it must be a quality.
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That place does not do restorations, they just flip cars. One of their cars was the topic of discussion with photos at Team Camaro. Typical for a classic car dealer. I've seen local cars before and after they landed at a dealer and know what's under the paint.
Vince, the car is listed on eBay (in-case you're interested)...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro/131469409831?_trksid=p2060778.c100276.m3476&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%
3D1%26asc%3D20140725133649%26meid%3De3ddd405f76f410baaa4545fa9cf2047%26pid%3D100276%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D221725446142
;)
Paul
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Hey just ran across this current listing:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-/171737097679?forcerrptr=true&hash=item27fc5425cf&item=171737097679
Maybe they used the same body shop, only this time they only goofed on one fender... :P
But then ran the rear stripes right up to the glass, to " top" it off.
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Another. Incredible! How does this happen? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-SS-/191547492530?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2c991ec8b2&item=191547492530#ht_3972wt_1312
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well.. :) .. maybe a bit too much alcohol before they installed those emblems?? :)
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lot of flippers and just people that do not know take cars to body shops, not restoration shops. I wonder about these cars on TV and other places that are done in a week, just what do they look like a year later. Years ago I had some body work done on my corvette and the guy just gellcoated for me to paint. When picking it up I asked how long should I wait to prime sand and paint. He said as long as you can. When I questioned that, he said well a year would be best. Well I did not and later I found out why he said it. My last one was primed in the spring and I took it home and let it sit in the sun all summer before paint. This one looks good
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well.. :) .. maybe a bit too much alcohol before they installed those emblems?? :)
I suspect some will hire anyone that walks in off the street, sober or not. If you can hold a piece of sandpaper with one hand, you're eligible.
Don't take it wrong - like any other business, good employees are hard to find, harder to keep sometimes. Way of all things -
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Paint / body / striping can be done correctly - time, money, and attention to detail on everyone's part. No place to cut corners.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=11835.0
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Some look dang good but what's underneath can be, well simply said, bad news. I've seen some bondo warriors! As previously noted, any good shop will document for both the customer and themselves the process. I must have a couple thousand pictures of my restoration. :)
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My buddy who shot my car has some pics of others work he has corrected. Pretty cars initially , but a lot of filler discovered underneath. Believe it or not , a clean one was a rare find 30 years ago, in NE Ohio anyway. Unless it wore a special badge or primarily was a Drag car, it was nothing unique seeing them in ruddy brown primer rotting away in a field or junk yard for that matter. When I was hitting some meets in the late 80's early 90's the cars around me were already on their 1st build. Guys would question me about the Z still wearing it's original paint. And that was a long time ago. I have posted before, as has many, have the car inspected before buying. Not that my car is going to be on the chopping block anytime soon, but if it was ,I would see no problem going in halves with a potential buyer to have the car professionally inspected.
Also brings up a question on certification. How long is the time frame before one questions the validity? One would think if your shelling out 50-60-70K+( and up) for a car ,for a few grand you would have JM standing next to you. But I'm a cynic.
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Totally agree... I was looking at a car that was certified by Jerry, but the paper work was 13 years old! How do I know the engine, trans, and rear are STILL what was in it during that inspection. That doesn't include the other 4 or 5 big ones... Smog, Dist., Water Pump, Carb, Generator etc. I learned a valuable lesson many years ago that I am STILL paying for... D
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Also be aware that it might take Jerry weeks to get out to the west coast to certify your car. In my case it was something like two months.I was the seller and the buyer was paying to certify the car.
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It's sad when you here stories of the retired couple who finally buy the car of their dreams, only to find it needs more $$$ to get it right. And, via these reality shows, dirty nasty undercarriages are becoming par for the course! "Drivers" they call them. I call it " little attention to detail" or "short cutting" Perfumed Pigs...
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Not everyone has loads of money for high caliber restorations. Most (I'd say 95%) of the cars you see at the local shows and cruises are of nice driver quality. Lets face it, the high end 6 figure restorations aren't driven and almost never come out unless the owner wants to knock it down to #2 condition. Actually the driver quality cars have become more and more frequent as more people want to drive and enjoy rather than sit and stare at the car.
Another fad that has really taken off in the last 5-8 years are original unrestored cars. I own a couple of those here myself. After 45+ years they can't compete in restored class competition, but they still present very nicely. That doesn't mean the car should be or needs to be restored. I guess to some they are cars that haven't had "attention to detail" ;D But it's actually quite the opposite. Lately they have become even more desirable than high end restored cars in some cases.
It's all about what the owner wants out of his/her car, and I'm not going to bad mouth either way. As long as they enjoy it, that's what it's all about.
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No, point here is cars being presented as being restored demanding high prices with multi issues covering layers of filler.
If top dollar is being paid for repairs , attention to detail pretty %$# well be a priority of the shop. Now, if the owner wants to cut costs, that's on them. Most legit shops will turn them away not wanting their name associated with the work. More cash in insurance jobs ,that's nothing new.
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No, point here is cars being presented as being restored demanding high prices with multi issues covering layers of filler.
If top dollar is being paid for repairs , attention to detail pretty %$# well be a priority of the shop. Now, if the owner wants to cut costs, that's on them. Most legit shops will turn them away not wanting their name associated with the work. More cash in insurance jobs ,that's nothing new.
Not disputing anything posted, but I felt the point I wanted to make is: How can someone miss such noticeable details if they are going to the trouble of painting, and by the 3 examples, the paint looks pretty good, so how could such egregious errors occur if replicating an original look? More so, how can one side to another get so screwed up on the same car? Just makes me want to cringe. When I see work like this, it only makes me wonder what else is wrong. I would at least like a car to look correct even if the work under the paint is sub-standard. My (speaking for many on here), car may not be a 900+ point MACN resto and more of a "driver", but I want details in every aspect to be correct so there is no doubt the car IS what is claimed or represented. I feel it is a disgrace to put this much work into a resto and have it come out like the examples cited, just inexcusable.
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I wasn't referring to that Janobyte, but okay.
Buyer's need to do their homework.
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No, point here is cars being presented as being restored demanding high prices with multi issues covering layers of filler.
If top dollar is being paid for repairs , attention to detail pretty %$# well be a priority of the shop. Now, if the owner wants to cut costs, that's on them. Most legit shops will turn them away not wanting their name associated with the work. More cash in insurance jobs ,that's nothing new.
Not disputing anything posted, but I felt the point I wanted to make is: How can someone miss such noticeable details if they are going to the trouble of painting, and by the 3 examples, the paint looks pretty good, so how could such egregious errors occur if replicating an original look? More so, how can one side to another get so screwed up on the same car? Just makes me want to cringe. When I see work like this, it only makes me wonder what else is wrong. I would at least like a car to look correct even if the work under the paint is sub-standard. My (speaking for many on here), car may not be a 900+ point MACN resto and more of a "driver", but I want details in every aspect to be correct so there is no doubt the car IS what is claimed or represented. I feel it is a disgrace to put this much work into a resto and have it come out like the examples cited, just inexcusable.
Understandable and I agree. That sort of gets back to what I mentioned before about owners not wanting to (or simply can't afford to) spend the coin to do things correctly, so they go to a substandard shops, and corners are cut, things get missed or just flat out done incorrectly. Unfortunately when that car goes up forsale the owner quickly finds out those mistakes are very expensive to correct after the fact and it reflects the prices that educated buyers are willing to pay.
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AGREED :)
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Not everyone has loads of money for high caliber restorations. Most (I'd say 95%) of the cars you see at the local shows and cruises are of nice driver quality. Lets face it, the high end 6 figure restorations aren't driven and almost never come out unless the owner wants to knock it down to #2 condition. Actually the driver quality cars have become more and more frequent as more people want to drive and enjoy rather than sit and stare at the car.
Another fad that has really taken off in the last 5-8 years are original unrestored cars. I own a couple of those here myself. After 45+ years they can't compete in restored class competition, but they still present very nicely. That doesn't mean the car should be or needs to be restored. I guess to some they are cars that haven't had "attention to detail" ;D But it's actually quite the opposite. Lately they have become even more desirable than high end restored cars in some cases.
It's all about what the owner wants out of his/her car, and I'm not going to bad mouth either way. As long as they enjoy it, that's what it's all about.
Great post.... :)
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I do one car at a time so I can devote 100% of my attention, research correct finishes etc...to avoid those issues. Not trying to sell myself here, just showing both sides of the coin. It's not always the body shops fault for certain things. There is alot more behind the scenes that reflect some of the poor decision making. I run into it quite often and have actually turned work away if I think the customers decisions are detrimental to the end result. I don't like my name on something that's going to fall apart in 5 years.
The research is what I find interesting, and it is more for my own knowledge and to ensure the car is accurate, than the insistence of the customer as most don't understand many of the little technical differences restorers find interesting.
X2
It takes a lot of effort to duplicate the controlled chaos of an assembly line.
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I do one car at a time so I can devote 100% of my attention, research correct finishes etc...to avoid those issues. Not trying to sell myself here, just showing both sides of the coin. It's not always the body shops fault for certain things. There is alot more behind the scenes that reflect some of the poor decision making. I run into it quite often and have actually turned work away if I think the customers decisions are detrimental to the end result. I don't like my name on something that's going to fall apart in 5 years.
The research is what I find interesting, and it is more for my own knowledge and to ensure the car is accurate, than the insistence of the customer as most don't understand many of the little technical differences restorers find interesting.
X2
It takes a lot of effort to duplicate the controlled chaos of an assembly line.
Agree, I also enjoy finding the differences in assembly plants, and within those there are timeframes during production when changes took place, etc...Takes alot of original unrestored cars to document some of these things. Ford mustangs are some of the more involved when it comes to this. 3 different assembly plants and all 3 did it differently, along with changes in procedures every 2-3 months. It can be frustrating sometimes. One example is how Dearborn used "batch paint" for the bottom side of the car (rather than red oxide like San Jose) but the problem with batch paint is that it's basically left over drums of various colors all mixed together (Ford was frugal), and that batch is constantly changing throughout production as you can imagine, as more left over paint is mixed in. So you need to find an area on the floor (under a plug or clip) that is preserved to color match it....or....find another original unrestored mustang from the same plant and within a week or so of the build time frame to at least get a close color to the batch paint that may have been used at that time.
Okay I'll quit babbling.
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My dad restores Flathead prewar Fords and he has told me about the Batch mixing and related problems with paint on the early Fords as well...
Henry didn't waste anything, Kingsford Charcoal was started to make use of all the scraps of wood from the early bodies. (Model T's and Model A's used wood through out the body structures and had the sheet metal as the outer skin.)
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Pretty cool stuff. Neat to meet others on here with a mix of interests. Your dad into Fords and you're into 1st gens. Should be interesting conversation around the dinner table ;D
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There are a number of guys on here into other makes and models, we all just happen to all be fans of 1st gen Camaros as well. :)
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There are a number of guys on here into other makes and models, we all just happen to all be fans of 1st gen Camaros as well. :)
Other "toy" out back is 2400# full on race 48 Anglia. I love earlier Ford trucks. Want a TRI 5 Gasser. Dad's picking at a 38 International with SBC ,shortened bed ,Fatman Fab front end...who don't dig Mustangs??
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That is refreshing to hear.
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I like firstgenabout anything...
First gen Shelby Mustang fastbacks!
First Gen Z16 Chevelles!
I grew up working on Flathead Fords... my dad used to say... A 67 Camaro isn't an old car, I had one new!
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Yea, I got other toys too, 30 coupe 331 Hemi :
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very cool. Looks to be chopped and channeled? did you do the work?
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Chopped 7 1/2, channeled 4 , on custom Z'ed frame. Yea, if only I could do that kind of stuff, Austin :'(. No, my forte is mechanics. Wish I did take up fabricating and bought those fab tools in my youth. I do a little fab. work, but will never do that well. I got car in Minnesota. PM with any other questions...this is a F-body site, ya know?
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How are you ever going to be able to do it if you don't give it a try??
You don't know how to do it, until you do.
My uncle has a 30 that is channeled only, and then a 34 pick up that he just getting on the road now. Both rat rods. I was there making the mods to help him channel it, not to hard. I haven't chopped anything, but it seems like getting the glass to fit proper and seal would be the tricky part.
Plus it is easier with hot rods, it doesn't have to perfect like on show cars, or factory correct. Little mistakes or imperfections with hot rods can just add to the story.
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Not disputing anything posted, but I felt the point I wanted to make is: How can someone miss such noticeable details if they are going to the trouble of painting,
I totally agree Bentley. The previous pics posted of the incorrect emblem placement and the bad striping are not do to a lack of funds and bodyshops having to cut corners. There's zero difference in the amount of time involved to drill 2 (incorrect) holes for the emblems and to place the (incorrect) stripe lines as it does to do it correctly. Those kind of mistakes are simply careless and uncalled for mistakes. Specially when there's thousands of pics out there to view off the net.
Most of those cars that have those kind of mistakes are coming from some type of classic car flipper. Who knows no more about correct emblem placement than my sister. They roll them in and roll them out for bigger $$ and that's it. Any shop putting out work like that is the one "cutting corners" or they'd repair their mistakes and eat the cost. But on the flip side. They're not selling those blunder cars to the 15% (just throwing a number out there..hehehe) of us that are on this site. They're keying on the the other 85% who just wants a 1st gen Camaro.
Btw..I too love my 1st gen Camaro... but also would like some day to get another 70's E-body Plymouth Cuda
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There's zero difference in the amount of time involved to drill 2 (incorrect) holes for the emblems and to place the (incorrect) stripe lines as it does to do it correctly. Those kind of mistakes are simply careless and uncalled for mistakes. Specially when there's thousands of pics out there to view off the net.
PULLING THE TRIGGER ON THE DRILL AND PIERCING THE METAL TAKES THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME...
There actually is a good bit more time involved in correctly laying everything out and checking and rechecking.
Researching, checking, and double checking then laying it out, then checking again.
Checking with the light bezel installed is KEY to getting the proper alignment.
After painting the body color then install the emblem and use 1/4" masking to ensure the stripes are spaced correctly and aligned with the emblem edges.
VS
Dab some ink on the pins hold the emblem up make a couple of marks with the pins and drill some holes...
I'd say about 2-3 hours difference for the emblems and stripes...
FWIW if paying a shop it would be money well spent.
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"PULLING THE TRIGGER ON THE DRILL AND PIERCING THE METAL TAKES THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME..." That I agree with James.
But 2-3 hours difference in time for correctness .... that I'm not so sure of. Maybe if you've never ever done it before and totally had no clue... JMO ! My point was that who ever laid the hockey stripe and placed the emblems had a good general idea of what it looked like and where they are placed. They had a good idea to the stripes overall length, width and shape. So...JMO, the time they took to lay that stripe out is not that much of a difference to doing it correct. 15 minutes worth of research in the AIM (pg. 248 D90 A1) will even spell it out for one.
That is not a lack of funds or time.. a lack of paying attention to detail.
The pic below is another good example of an emblem goof. Car is currently on a well know web site. Ad claims over 70K invested, asking 60K OBO. I know those are the seller's words ;D if your spending that kinda coin in a resto your not gonna tell me that the owner is gonna cut 2-3 hours off to save a buck ? .. again JMO
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Those photos make one wonder WHO is buying these Z28's... didn't they EVER see a correct Z28 before they bought those? or *restored* those??
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I should explain why I feel it's a result of going to cheap body shops. Yeah they've seen the cars, they have a general idea how things should be, but they don't take the time to research nor do they care enough to spend extra time on the car doing it correctly. Honestly alot of owners on the cheap just don't care either as long as it's close.
To be frank about it, it really starts with the owner of the car unwilling to spend the money to go to a top notch shop and PAY for time involved in these cars to do one correctly. Stripes aren't quite right, finishes are wrong, emblems are wrong etc. etc.... Most people go where ever they get the best quote to do the work and/or it's most convenient. It doesn't mean the car will get done correctly and likely things will be missed. That was the gist of the whole "lack of funds" comment. You get one quote for $5,000 and another for $25,000 where do you think 90% of the population will go? I'd bet my money that a nagging wife, kids in college, will make the obvious choice for most people ;D
I can't tell you how many supposed 69 Z28's I've seen with rear spoilers that have the stripes extend below the spoiler onto the decklid. Very common rookie mistake that alot of body shops do. Most owners have no clue either because the car never started life as a Z28 to begin with. Must be 40,000 of those cars running around now, lol. Saw one at a cruise this past weekend that had an AC box on the firewall, a 10 bolt, and an automatic, LOL.
Paint jobs aren't cheap anymore. The cost of materials is ridiculous compared to just 10 years ago. Money doesn't go as far as it used to. People just don't want to pay $10,000-$20,000 just to shoot a car these days (those prices don't include labor to get the car ready to shoot in most shops).
I usually spend about $1500 minimum just on primers, paint, reducers, hardeners, clear, etc....that can reach $3,000 pretty quick depending on colors and brands. So yeah people are going to go where it's most reasonable and yet still try to get quality for their money, who can blame them. Unfortunately you sometimes wind up with examples shown. Like I said earlier, I have a customer right now that's too cheap to buy a $40 stencil kit on a Mach 1 I'm doing. He's lucky that I happen to own an original paint SCJ Mach 1 I can take measurements from. And that's the key. When you have to lay stuff out by hand, you can't always use another cars that's been painted. What if that's not exactly right?? You need an original paint car in my opinion if you want to take notes and are too cheap to buy inexpensive stencils. How many shops are going to take the time to do that? If it wasn't figured into the original quote, and the owner gripes about more money, my guess is, not many shops ;)
You take the car to Tieman and it will come back correct, but the average person won't spend 6 figures on a restoration either. That's really what I was getting at earlier. I see this all the time in the business.