CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jerry@CHP on January 27, 2013, 02:24:26 AM
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Just found out that an original L78 car without the original engine was represented as an all original L89 Camaro certified by me. The car was certified but it was missing its original L78 engine. This car is not an original L89. It was an original L78 car. The original 840 heads were still with the car when I inspected it three years ago.
Jerry
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LINK (http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=FL0113-143248) to the auction.
Here's my issue with this.
Mecum states in their online description:
This 1968 Chevrolet Camaro SS coupe is a very rare machine indeed. Documented as one of only 4,575 built with the L78 396/375 HP big block engine, it has rare factory L89 aluminum heads on a correct date coded block and retains the original M21 4-speed and 4.10-geared 12-bolt Positraction rear axle. A life-long Ohio resident, it has been completely rotisserie restored and correctly finished in Matador Red with a Black vinyl roof, Black front accent stripe, Red painted steel wheels with dog dish caps and Firestone Redline Wide Ovals and a rare Red interior. This spectacular factory L89 Camaro SS comes complete with an authentication report and certificate.
This right there proves that even though they know this car ISN'T an original factory L89 car, they're advertising it as such, using Jerry's name to give credence.
Of course, their disclaimer states:
Information found on the website is presented as advance information for the auction lot. Photos, materials for videos, descriptions and other information are provided by the consignor/seller and is deemed reliable, but Mecum Auction does not verify, warrant or guarantee this information. The lot and information presented at auction on the auction block supersedes any previous descriptions or information. Mecum is not responsible for information that may be changed or updated prior to the auction. The decision to purchase should be based solely on the buyers personal inspection of the lot at the auction site prior to the auction.
To me this is nothing but smoke and mirrors with Mecum trying to pass an original L78 (non-numbers matching since the original block is gone), as an original FACTORY L89. VERY deceptive to say the least and not something I'd expect from a (supposedly) reputable company.
Ed
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Thanks to this site i stayed away from that car. I think it went to 90 and was a no sale
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Ed, you hit the nail right on the head. Very deceptive ad and not how we would hope a reputable company would conduct business.
Steve
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So what you're saying is that B-J, Mecum, Russo-Steele has to assume full liability for EVERY claim made for EVERY car in their auctions?
Read the auction terms-AS IS, WHERE IS. All claims are from the seller.
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The way I read it they say its a documented L78. Only that it now has L89 heads. . Documented as one of only 4,575 built with the L78 396/375 HP
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I was very curious about the background of the 'John Justo' that had quite a number of very pricey cars sold thru that auction. It may be my 'old' memory, but I don't recall ever hearing of his collection before..? Does anyone know who/where he is?
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So what you're saying is that B-J, Mecum, Russo-Steele has to assume full liability for EVERY claim made for EVERY car in their auctions?
Read the auction terms-AS IS, WHERE IS. All claims are from the seller.
The ad says "This spectacular factory L89 Camaro SS comes complete with an authentication report and certificate.". Not debating if they are liable.....just that the ad is deceptive.
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Who writes the ad copy?
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I have talked with Mark Manning this morning about the car. He will post something here. He restored the car, sold it to Rob Sitts and it was sold again. Now it's at the Mecum auction. The aluminum heads on the car are service replacements according to what Mark told me. Car does not have its original engine. The original owner and his wife are both deceased. I have original photos of the car when it was new.
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I would be surprised if Mecum wrote any ad copy with respect to how a particular car may or may not be equipped.
Auction companies don't incur liability nor should they when it comes to whether or not a car is what the seller states, that is for the buyer to determine.
The problem could arise when/if the auction company is alerted to a suspected fraud and they do nothing with-in their power to correct or advise potential bidders of said potential fraud, such as add a disclaimer or to place conditions on the sale or etc, then there could possibly be grounds on which a lawyer may base their case. If however an auction company pulled a listing or even TAINTED a car which could not be disproven, then the auction company could end up being liable for seller's TIME, SHIPPING, REPUTATION, ETC.
What happens when/if someone doesn't like the fact that the car you are selling is nicer that the one they are selling and cries wolf and it ends up costing many people TONS of $$$.
Is the wolf crier liable?
Should they be?
Studying the what if's for each party involved reveals the answer is not so simple.
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The way I read it they say its a documented L78. Only that it now has L89 heads. . Documented as one of only 4,575 built with the L78 396/375 HP
That is the way I read it too, but ONLY because of the discussion here. If I had read it before I would have thought it to be an original L-89. Very disceptive!
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They mention 3 times that it is an L78 car. Not sure what all the fuss is about.
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The car i was referring to that didn't sell was the 69. It had issues also. Sorry for the confusion
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I reviewed Mecum's Jan. auction cars in anticipation of going there back in December and that 68 was one of them as it was an eye catcher. My thoughts upon first reading it and reviewing several times later before this post hit was it was an original L78 car now sporting orig. type alum. heads but never thought or assumed it was an original L89. As many have said auction houses communicate what has been passed onto them and it's up to the potential bidders to determine what is correct. BUT, I can understand and agree that many of the descriptions leave a lot to be desired and are fashioned to be "you be the judge!" I was more interested in that red 62 bubble top 409/409hp Chevy :)
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Copied and pasted directly from the ad: "This spectacular factory L89 Camaro SS" This says to me that the car came from the factory as an L89. But ad also states that car is L78?? My reaction to all the claims made at these auctions about what these cars supposedly are is "Uh huh, right!"
What amazes me is all these people that seem to have money dropping it like loose change. Just doesn't jive with my world, or anyone else's I know. Sometimes it seems like these bidders are more concerned about making an impression, or their image, than they are about the cars they are bidding on.
Jimmy V.
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Haven't I heard before that the L78 was the engine, and the 'aluminum heads' were just an additional option on the Camaros?
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L89 is an option, but there is a different application suffix code for L89 engine.
In 1968, the L78 code for Camaro and Nova is MQ. It is MT for the L89 396/375hp Camaro.
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If it has a different engine code, then I'd call it a different engine... The one in the Mecum auctioni sounds to be a 'replacement L78' (not the oen the factory installed, with added aluminum heads... making it into a 'defacto' L89, but not a factory L89. The *code* tells the entire story, and the SN on the block identifies the car it came from the factory with.... like all the engines.
... so it's a different day. but with lots of *resellers/fakers*.. it's the same old sh*t...