69 Center axle bumper - two styles?

[Dave69x33]

During the 69 model run, there were two different style center axle bumpers, one retained with screws to the bottom of the chassis, the other a pushed in style. 

Was the push in style a 68 carry over and used on early 69's?

My May "05A" Norwood car has the push in style.  The 69 AIM, UPC section 4, page 59 shows that the documentation was updated on 8-29-68 to include screw #3958062, and changed the bumper from #3923564 to bumper asm #3962763.

Can someone confirm the changeover date?  Does anyone have their original screw in style bumpers?  If so, what is your build date and could you please post a picture of the bumper?

Thanks.

 

[KevinW]

I am curious about this too!  My June 69 leftover SS Van Nuys had the plate (missing the bumper), but my Oct 68 norwood had the push in kind (cant tell if it was replaced)

[L78 steve]

My 04C has the push in style .

[Dave69x33]

Thanks KevinW and L78 Steve,

So far it appears that we have documenation updates in late 1968, an Oct 68 Norwood, April '69 (plant?) and May '69 Norwood car with push-in styles, and a June '69 LA car with the screw on style axle bumper.

Anyone else with their original bumpers?

[Dave69x33]

I would revisit this topic I originally posted it back in 2008.

Since 2008, CRG has added a section dedicated to original and unrestored Camaros so hopefully feedback from the owners of those Camaro can comment and hopefully show photos! 

With your feedback we need to know the plant and build date of your car. Your VIN will also help more closely determine when the change took place.

Question: Is it known when the center rear axle bumper changed from the push in style to the bolted in style on the ‘69?

I saw in the ‘69 AIM, section 4, page 59 assembly manual, an engineering change dated 8-29-68, where the center bumper changed from the push in style 3923564to the bolt on style 3962763.

My July 1969 GM Parts Catalog, “Group 5.395 Bumper, Rear Axle Pinion,” calls for screw in type 3962763 for “1969/ALL” along with this note: “When used in place of a push in CN bumper it will necessary to drill two 9/32 holes, using bumper as a template, and attach with 5/16-18 tap screws.”  It also calls for screw 3958062 which is a self tapping screw.

When I posted on this question on CRG back in 2008, I got two responses. An 04C ‘69 had a push in style, my 45k mile 05A Norwood build N639712 ‘69 had the original push in style still on the car when I started my restoration. One other ‘69 Camaro owner responded with a ‘69 June car from Van Nuys had the bolt in style.  I recently discovered on CRG the low mileage LeMans Blue X77 Z28 survivor, late build 10E Norwood car had the screw in center axle bumper.

All told, based on the GM documentation dates and this very small (4) sampling of ‘69s, it appears the change phased in between mid-May and June 1969.

Can anyone with an unrestored survivor, or documented original restored ‘69, share on this topic?

The photo attached is from the 10E blue survivor.

I’ll start photo documenting this anytime a see a ‘69 survivor!

Happy New Years!

Dave

[Dave69x33]

Here is snap shot of the info from the GM Parts Catalog, Group 5.395 Bumper, Rear Axle Pinion.

[Dave69x33]

And... a full view of the factory assembly manual page 59 highlighting the engineering change I mentioned regarding the change to the center axle bumper.

[RikerZ28]

I just checked my 69 NOR 02D and it has a push in bumper. Looks to be original as it looks like its 55 years old.

[Iowa Jon]

Hi Dave,  my 05A Norwood X77 has the push in style.

Jon

[Dave69x33]

Thanks Jon!

We need to compare notes as my X33 Z28 is an 05A!

[Iowa Jon]

Hi Dave,  after posting I took a look at pictures from another Camaro  I owned back in 2003. 1969 Camaro Norwood built X11  01B.  Pictures look like it is a push in.  I only have pictures of the top side with the floor cut out.  I may have some underside pictures.  If you want to see the pictures email me.   

[R68GTO]

My 09D (late) Norwood has the holes for the screw in style but had a push in style installed when I took it apart for restoration.  Every bumper on the car was original when I took it apart.  This one ws one of the few on the car I couldn't save - it was rock hard and had to be destroyed to get it out.

[Dave69x33]

Interesting R69GTO! Thanks.

[Dave69x33]

RikerZ28…thank you for your response.

R69GTO, forgot to mention that my car also had the two holes for the screw in style but had the push in style snubber. During my restoration I looked closely at the holes and there was no evidence they were ever tapped for the screw in style.

So far, this is what we have, NW = Norwood, VN = Van Nuys:

01B, NW, push in
02D, NW, push in
04C, plant? push in
June, VN, bolt in
05A, NW, push in
05A, NW, push in
09D, NW, push in

Let’s keep in going!

[x66 714]

Norwood, 08E of 1969, push in....Joe

[copo]

my old 05E X77 Norwood had the bolt in style, my 06A X44 Norwood has the bolt in style

[Dave69x33]

Updated list with the info folks have provided so far. I included the CRG contributor to keep from duplicating input. I did not include the X-code of the '69 Camaro assuming it did not effect the body construction and use of the center axle bumper (snubber) usage. We will have this CRG thread to look back on to see that Camaro build type info.

01B, NW, push in Iowa Jon
02D, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
04C, plant? push in, from L78 steve
June, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05E, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09D, NW, push in, from R68 GTO

[169INDY]

04C, VN, Push In, from 169INDY (Z11)

[Dave69x33]

Thanks Jim (169INDY)!

Updated list:

01B, NW, push in Iowa Jon
02D, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
04C, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, VN, push in, from 169INDY
June, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05E, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09D, NW, push in, from R68 GTO

[HOT3O2]

12B, VN, Push In, From HOT3O2

[x77-69z28]

My 05A Norwood Z/28 that I have owned since 1978 has the bolt in.
Buddy

[Badshifter]

Norwood 09C (late) push in, holes are there but have no threads or sign of past bolts.

[bcmiller]

If you are keeping track, I think it would be important to know if the car has a 12 bolt or 10 bolt and the axle ratio.

[Dusk Blue Z]

04C Z10 Press in Snubber
05A X77 Press in Snubber
Both with 12 bolts

Mike

[Dave69x33]

Thanks all for the responses.

I updated the list:

12B, model?, VN, push in, HOT302
01B, X11, NW, push in, Iowa Jon
02D, X77, NW, push in, from RikerZ28 (assumed X77)
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, Z11, VN, push in, from 169INDY
04C, Z10, plant?, Z10, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
06?, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, X33, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05A, X77, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28
05A, X77, plant?, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05E, X77, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, model? NW, bush in, from x66 714
09C, X77, NW, push in, from Badshifter
09D, model?, NW, push in, from R68 GTO

Questions:

HOT302, I assume your 12B car is a very early build '69?

bcmiller, Good point.  I assumed all '69 bodies would have the center and outer axle snubbers so I did not think to ask for the 10 vs 12 bolt input. Some folks responded with the type of Camaro they have so I updated the list with a few question for some folks.

Dusk Blue Z, can you update your input to let us know which plant?

KevinW, your Oct68 Norwood car, what model and was it a early build?

L78Steve, what model and plant was your 04C?

[x66 714]

01B VN SS/RS 350 push in type....Joe

BTW my is a X66 325hp 08E of 1969 for the record

[RikerZ28]

My 02D is 12 bolt and is an X33

[Dusk Blue Z]

Both are Norwood cars.

[R68GTO]

Mine is an X44 COPO BE rear.

Just a pure speculative theory on this topic.  We have the change document that notes the move to bolt in style.  For late build cars (past normal production end date of July time frame), they may have received old style or a mix due to limited availability of new style bolt in.  I wonder what the design is of the 1970 Camaro snubber.....same bolt in, different bolt in, or push in?

[KevinW]

My Norwood car is 10B of 68, 327 10 bolt auto.  No threads are cut in bracket holes.

[bcmiller]

Mine is an X44 COPO BE rear.

Just a pure speculative theory on this topic.  We have the change document that notes the move to bolt in style.  For late build cars (past normal production end date of July time frame), they may have received old style or a mix due to limited availability of new style bolt in.  I wonder what the design is of the 1970 Camaro snubber.....same bolt in, different bolt in, or push in?

Copied from above. The AIM shows the change dated August 1968.   

I saw in the ‘69 AIM, section 4, page 59 assembly manual, an engineering change dated 8-29-68

Not sure about Camaro but 1970 Nova has the bolt in style.

[bcmiller]

I guess I really don't see the need to figure out when things changed. It is either one style or the other and probably not something that is judged.

GM parts catalog shows the change November of 1968.  That is as far back as I looked. That was probably the next update after the change shown in the AIM for August 1968.

Why the change was not seen on production cars, I don't know. Maybe they just had that many already made up. The change did happen for 1970.

See this

[Dave69x33]

All, thanks for your updates:  The list below was updated accordingly with you corrections.

Definition of X-Codes if pertinent to this topic:
W/Z21 Style Trim or Z22 Rally Sport:
   X11 = non SS396, non Z28, includes SS350
   X22 = SS396
   X33 = Z28 (w/Z21 Style Trim but not necessarily an RS)

W/O Z21 Style Trim or Z22 Rally Sport:
   X44 = non SS, non Z28 (Note: most COPOs were X11 or X44 bodies, some early COPOs were X22 or X66 bodies)
   X55 = SS350
   X66 = SS396
   X77 = Z28

Study Sample:
10B ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from KevinW 
12B ('68), X33, VN, push in, HOT302
01B, X11, NW, push in, Iowa Jon
01B, X66, VN, push in, from x66 714
02D, X33, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, Z11, VN, push in, from 169INDY
04C, Z10, NW, Z10, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
06?, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, X33, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05A, X77, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05E, X77, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, X66, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09C, X77, NW, push in, from Badshifter
09D, X44, NW, push in, from R68 GTO (COPO BE axle)

[Dave69x33]

bcmiller,

I tend to agree with you.  While reviewing some of my old post, I ran across this topic and wanted to revisit it and see the feedback. The list so far is a very limited sample of 18 cars and "prematurely" indicates the bolt-in style appears to have started in June. However, there are numbers cars after June still using the push in style.  To make any kind of statistical inference from this study, we need a much larger 125+ samples of data.

I assume the November '68 change was perhaps lunched as a "use stock" of the old push-in style and to supply bolt-in service replacements?  Its not a safety critical component so we will not see a GM bulletin or recall.  It just one of those odd changes made to the '69 that is hard to pin down.

From this point forward, if I see a unrestored 1969 survivor, I till try to photo document it. I just hope is not when I have a suit on attending a wedding or funeral...LOL! 

I still welcome other's feedback new to this topic.

Dave

 

[bcmiller]

I am not discouraging you from looking at this more. Go ahead.

[john jay 69Z]

Happy New Year to all

My 09C X33 also has the push in, has the 2 holes but no threads.

John

[Dave69x33]

Thanks for your input john jay 69Z.

TO: x66 714, thanks for your correct info. I forgot that all Camaros built at Van Nuys, and very early Camaros built at Norwood, did not include X-Codes on their trim tags.

TO All,

In retrospect, using X-Codes as data may not have been the best approach to track when the bolt-in style rear axle snubber was launched in production. While the X-Codes do provide info about the powertrain, and assuming every '69 Camaro has (or should have) its original body trim plate, my initial strategy was to include the X-Code.  A more straight forward approach would have been to note if the Camaro was a 6 or 8 cylinder.  Since we started this with X-Codes, we can continue and clarify the engine in Van Nuys and early Norwood '69 Camaros.

The other option would have been to note the 5-digit codes after "ST" on the trim tag. This indicates the body style and if the car was a 6 or 8 cylinder. Per Alan Colvin's Chevrolet by the Numbers book, the ST codes for the 1969 Camaro break down as follows:

Example: ST 12337: "1" = Chevrolet Division, "2" for the 2000-series Camaro body, the 3rd digit = 6 or 8 cylinder engine, and "37" = sport coupe whereas "67" = convertible.

Thus:
12337 = Camaro 6-cylinder 2-door sport coupe
12367 = Camaro 6-cylinder 2-door convertible
12437 = Camaro 8-cylinder 2-door sport coupe
12467 = Camaro 8-cylinder 2-door convertible 

NOTE: So far, all the data in the list appears to all be 8-cylinder '69 Camaros.

Definition of X-Codes if pertinent to this topic:
W/Z21 Style Trim or Z22 Rally Sport:
   X11 = non SS396, non Z28, includes SS350
   X22 = SS396
   X33 = Z28 (w/Z21 Style Trim but not necessarily an RS)
   Z10 = Indy Pace Car accents - hardtop
   Z11 = Indy Pace Car accents - converitable

W/O Z21 Style Trim or Z22 Rally Sport:
   X44 = Base car, non SS, non Z28 (Note: most COPOs were X11 or X44 bodies, some early COPOs were X22 or X66 bodies)
   X55 = SS350
   X66 = SS396
   X77 = Z28


Study Sample:
10B ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from KevinW
12B ('68), RS Z28, VN, push in, HOT302
01B, X11, NW, push in, Iowa Jon
01B, SS/RS 350, VN, push in, from x66 714
02D, X33, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, L48 Pace Car, VN, push in, from 169INDY
04C, Z10, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
06?, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, X33, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05A, X77, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05E, X77, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, X66, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09C, X77, NW, push in, from Badshifter
09C. X33, NW, push in, from john jay 69Z
09D, X44, NW, push in, from R68 GTO (COPO BE axle)

[bcmiller]

Not quite right. The data after the ST does not designate L6 or V8. That’s in the VIN.

See this.
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#VIN

And this
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#VINvsStyle

[Dave69x33]

Thanks bcmiller. You are correct. My mistake. I miss read this. I looked for this info on CRG on trim tags and overlooked it. After reviewing Colvin’s book again, under the late 1969 trim tags, there is a footnote stating “the engine identification portion of the model identification number always indicates a V-8 engine.” He goes on to state that no 6-cylinder identification number is stamped on any trim tag, and the engine must be determined by checking the VIN number.

[Jonesy]

I see on the list there is 06? VN. That cant be as the last week at Van Nuys was 05A.

I have 2 Van Nuys cars, both with original axle bumpers still in place. Build sheets for both

11B L48 push in
02A Z28 push in

[KevinW]

Jonesy, my VN car on the list is stamped 05A, but based on the CRG VIN research, when VN restarted after the strike in mid june, my car was around the 100 built with leftover parts. I think VN finished up the 'parts' cars in mid July 69.

Which might be why it came with a bolt on snubber.  Random parts pulled from the bins just to get the cars out the door.

[Dave69x33]

KevinW,

Interesting info on your 06? Camaro!  Is your trim tag stamped 05A and should I correct this in the list?

Dave

[bcmiller]

Jonesy, my VN car on the list is stamped 05A, but based on the CRG VIN research, when VN restarted after the strike in mid june, my car was around the 100 built with leftover parts. I think VN finished up the 'parts' cars in mid July 69.

Which might be why it came with a bolt on snubber.  Random parts pulled from the bins just to get the cars out the door.

It may have gotten the bolt on snubber because things were getting prepped for 1970. The bolt on style was probably not fully implemented until the 1970 model year.

[Edgemontvillage]

Doug Perry's 1969 Norwood 2D build L78 9,500 mile survivor with it original bolt-in bumper



My 1969 Norwood 2B build RS/Z28 with its original push-in bumper

[Dave69x33]

Interesting...thanks Edgemontvillage!  Two February '69 build Norwood Camaros each with a different center bumper!

I saw Doug's '69 L78 SS at the 2023 Bloomington Gold Camaro judging and again at the 2023 Camaro Nationals while being judged. It's a great time capsule!

BTW...I followed your "Brooklyn Project" restoration on the Hugger Orange, '69 RS Z28 on Camaros.net.  Outstanding work! 

I looked thru my photos and found a friend's unrestored, original owner, std. base 327, early 10D Norwood build with a push-in. I have a photo data base of 40 '69 Camaros but only only with a picture of the center axle bumper area. I took the photo to document the color of the bottom side the body.  Wished I could go back in time to get photos of this area on all 39 other Camaros...LoL!

List updated:

10B ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from KevinW
10D ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, original owner, unrestored.
12B ('68), RS Z28, VN, push in, HOT302
01B, X11, NW, push in, Iowa Jon
01B, SS/RS 350, VN, push in, from x66 714
02B, X33, RS 28, push in, from Edgemontvllage, original unrestored
02D, X33, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
02D, X66 L78 SS396 (survivor), NW, bolt in, from Edgemontvillage, Doug Perry's car
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, L48 Pace Car, VN, push in, from 169INDY
04C, Z10, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
06?, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, X33, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05A, X77, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05E, X77, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, X66, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09C, X77, NW, push in, from Badshifter
09C. X33, NW, push in, from john jay 69Z
09D, X44, NW, push in, from R68 GTO (COPO BE axle)

[KevinW]

KevinW,

Interesting info on your 06? Camaro!  Is your trim tag stamped 05A and should I correct this in the list?

Dave

Dave, yes trim tag is stamped 05A. it's up to you how you want to place it in the list.  It's kinda the same as the stuck convertible Norwood 06A trim tag error, which based on VINs were produced for the whole month of June.

Lloyd, thanks for the bolt on snubber pic.  Now I check to see I have the correct bolts!

[Dave69x33]

KevinW, since your trim tag is 05A, I’ll note it that way.

AMK Products list screw 3958062. Here is a pic. It’s self tapping 5/16-18 which matches the thread called out in the GM catalog when replacing the bumper with bolt-in style #3962763.

[Dave69x33]

List updated with correction to KevinW's "06?" SS VN Camaro to "05A."

10B ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from KevinW
10D ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, original owner, unrestored.
12B ('68), RS Z28, VN, push in, HOT302
01B, X11, NW, push in, Iowa Jon
01B, SS/RS 350, VN, push in, from x66 714
02B, X33, RS 28, push in, from Edgemontvllage, original unrestored
02D, X33, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
02D, X66 L78 SS396 (survivor), NW, bolt in, from Edgemontvillage, Doug Perry's car
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, L48 Pace Car, VN, push in, from 169INDY
04C, Z10, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05A, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, X33, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05A, X77, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28
05A, X77, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05E, X77, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, X66, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09C, X77, NW, push in, from Badshifter
09C. X33, NW, push in, from john jay 69Z
09D, X44, NW, push in, from R68 GTO (COPO BE axle)

[Dave69x33]

Based on the suggestion from bcmiller that perhaps the bolt on center axle bumper was launched as the plant was prepare for the changeover to the 1970 Camaro, but then Edgemontvillage shared an early 02D Norwood build original Camaro with the round bolt-on style center bumper.

This prompted me to review my GM Master Parts catalog for the 1969 vs 1970 center bolt-on style axle bumper and try to find pictures of GM NOS or original GM bumpers. I found the following.

Here is the 1967 - 1970 GM Camaro Parts Catalog Group 5.395 which calls out center axle bumper #3923564 push-in for 1968 - 69, and #481834 bolt-in for 1970.

Heartbeat City Camaro and OER are a couple of supplier that cell reproduction push in #3923564 bumpers (see pictures for reference) but I can not find a reproduction of the 3962763 bolt-in bumper.

[Dave69x33]

Doing further internet search, I did find these references to a used 3963763 bolt-in style bumper from a 1974 Nova from the folks on StevesNovaSite.com. The contributor "Pullus" stated he could make out the part number on his original bumper and was looking for a replacement. The pictures resemble the bolt-in style shown earlier in this discussion. 

[Dave69x33]

When I searched for the 1970 Camaro #481834 bolt-in center bumper, I found this picture. The #481834 looks very close to the #3962763 called out for the 1969 bolt-in style bumper.

Notice the GM box states #481834 but #525419 was written on the box so I searched it next.

[Dave69x33]

The round bolt-in style bumper resembles the style Edgemontvillage shared in his photo of the original Norwood 02D build SS L78 Camaro.

Top Flight Automotive sells a reproduction #525419 round style bolt-in pumper for the 1976 -1981 Camaro. 

Note: In the picture I posted of the NOS #525419 round style bolt-in bumper, included a footnote stating the center pinion nose bumper GM #481834 was for for 1970-74 Corvette, and #525419 for 1975-81” Corvette. For those looking for the round style bolt-in for a Camaro, this may help you broaden your search!  I am not sure if the center-to-center distance between the mounting holes, and overall height of the bumper is the same for a Camaro application.

At this point, based on the small data sample of '1969 Camaros, the push-in center bumper was the most common, but evidence shows a few received the bolt-in style, round and rectangular.  We need more data from restored survivor '69s and/or pictures of the center axle bumpers before restoration.

Thanks again for everyone's input!   

[Edgemontvillage]

Dave, none of the photos of bolt-ins posted accurately resemble the pinion snubber / bumper on Doug's 1969 L78 SS, the closest I've seen is a 1968 Dodge Charger 8 3/4 Rear End (adjustable) snubber. The base is very different but the rubber bumper is almost identical.

[bcmiller]

I kind of have my doubts on the bolt in style. Those could have been replaced if the original was damaged.

[Dave69x33]

Lloyd,  I agree and noticed the differences in the chamfered ends on the mounting plate and more rounded nose on the rubber bumper in Doug’s car. Hopefully over time more folks with ‘69 survivors will post photos of their bolt-in center axle bumpers.

I assume the differences in axle bumper design is what we sometimes in a component installed at the factory vs. the service replacement GM part; they don’t alway look identical. A change to the plate or rubber that does not affect the form, fit, or function of the component in the final assembly may have not required an engineering part number change which includes all the clerical work in the GM system, and validation of a new GM supplier/component. It’s also odd GM would make a change to this piece that adds complexity and more assembly work content. You would expect the design to change from bolt-in to push-in. I worked for a GM division for 15 years, Chrysler for 10, and now 14 years back at Allison Transmission, a former GM division. In both the GM and Chrysler plants, lower assembly content and complexity was always the goal. Keep in mind that this change also required additional tote dunnage for the bolts and installation tools along the assembly line. This might be the reason we see the push-in design more commonly used during the ‘69 model run as it was a less complex install. However, the ‘69 Camaro mounting structure was designed for either a push-on or bolt-on style bumper. Over time, the (2) outer frame mounted axle bumpers also got more complex changing from push-in to bolt-in bumpers. So there must have been issues with the push-in bumper design that eventually drove the change to bolt-in bumpers. I did not show it but the 1974 Nova application that used a very similar bolt-in center bumper as the ‘69 Camaro, showed the floor pan and the structure did not include a slot for a push-in.

What is interesting is Doug’s ‘69 SS is the first early car observed so far with the round style bolt-in bumper while most ‘69s in the study use the push-in style.  Could this have been be a slow ramp up production supply of the bolt-in bumper?  Did Norwood/Van Nuys make this a “running change” to pilot test the install of the bolt-in bumper?  This is the reason I am pushing for more input and pictures from survivor ‘69 Camaros.

Kinda crazy so much attention is given to such a small detail…but that a what we do!  Details…details…details…lol!

[KevinW]

Here is what I used to "replace" the rubber of the snubber. stamped part number is 3958061

[Dave69x33]

List updated with a couple more entries of friends' '69 Camaros that live in my area:

10B ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from KevinW
10D ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, original owner, unrestored.
12B ('68), RS Z28, VN, push in, HOT302
01B, X11 SS350, NW, push in, Iowa Jon
01B, SS/RS 350, VN, push in, from x66 714
02B, X33, RS Z28, push in, from Edgemontvllage, original unrestored
02D, X33 Z28, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
02D, X66 L78 SS396 (survivor), NW, bolt in, from Edgemontvillage, Doug Perry's car
03E, X33 non-RS Z28, NW, Legends Certified 2023, push in,from Dave69X33 (friend's car)
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, Z11 L48 Pace Car, VN, push in, from 169INDY
04C, Z10, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05A, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, X33 RS Z28, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05A, X77 Z28, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28
05A, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05C, Z11 Pace Car, NW, push in, from Dave69x33 (friend's car)
05E, X77 Z28, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, X66 SS396, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09C, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Badshifter
09C. X33 Z28, NW, push in, from john jay 69Z
09D, X44 427 COPO, NW, push in, from R68 GTO (COPO BE axle)
09D, X77 Z28, NW, push in. from Dave69x33 (friend's car)

[R68GTO]

Maybe they had a special tool to install the push in style - based on my experience, the giant PITA of getting the push-in style installed would be enough reason to change to bolt-in style.  Bolt in add complexity, but if it reduces time, it might have driven a change.

[Dave69x33]

R68GTO, good point. I guess we’ll never know why the change was made.

It’s times like this when I miss input from JohnZ and his experienced working I the Norwood plant!

[68camaroz28]

We looked at Skip's 09D (late) NOR survivor today and it's a bolt in.

[Clete]

       03E , X11 , NW , Push in

[Dave69x33]

Thanks Clete!

68camaro28,  what model is Skip’s 09D, X77 Z28?

Dave

[Dave69x33]

68camaroZ28, never mind, found it. It’s a X77 Z28.  Thought I remembered reading about Skip’s Z28 over on the Original Cars and Details discussion topic. I met Skip and saw his amazing survivor at the 2023 Nationals! Great time piece!

[Dave69x33]

TO: 68camaroZ28, what shape bolt-in bumper was in Skip's Z28, round or rectangular?

Updated list with input from Clete and 68camaroz28

10B ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from KevinW
10D ('68), std. 327, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, original owner, unrestored
12B ('68), RS Z28, VN, push in, HOT302
01B, X11 SS350, NW, push in, Iowa Jon
01B, SS/RS 350, VN, push in, from x66 714
02B, X33, RS Z28, push in, from Edgemontvllage, original unrestored
02D, X33 Z28, NW, push in, from RikerZ28
02D, X66 L78 SS396 (survivor), NW, bolt in, from Edgemontvillage, Doug Perry's car
03E, X33 non-RS Z28, NW, Legends Certified 2023, push in, from Dave69X33, friend's car
03E, X11, NW, push in, from Clete
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve
04C, Z11 L48 Pace Car, VN, push in, from 169INDY
04C, Z10, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05A, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW
05A, X33 RS Z28, NW, push in, Dave69x33
05A, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon
05A, X77 Z28, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28
05A, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z
05C, Z11 Pace Car, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, friend's car
05E, X77 Z28, NW, bolt in from copo
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo
08E, X66 SS396, NW, bush in, from x66 714
09C, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Badshifter
09C. X33 Z28, NW, push in, from john jay 69Z
09D, X44 427 COPO, NW, push in, from R68 GTO (COPO BE axle)
09D, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Dave69x33 (friend's car)
09D, X77 Z28, NW, bolt-in, from 68camaroZ28, Skip's unrestored survivor.

[68camaroz28]

68camaroz28=Chick :-)
Skip's is rectangular

[Dave69x33]

Any chance to get to get a picture of Skip’s rectangular bumper?

[68camaroz28]

Any chance to get to get a picture of Skip’s rectangular bumper?

Not at this time but will try in near future.

[Dave69x33]

Added input from several more Camaros located in the Indianapolis area where I live and inspected:

10A (early, pre-X code), Z28, NW, bolt in, from Dave69X33, friends car, original, restored.
10B (early, pre-X code), std. 327, NW, push in, from KevinW.
10D (early, pre-X code), std. 327, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, friends car, original owner, unrestored.
12B (early, pre-X code), RS Z28, VN, push in, HOT302.
01B, X11 SS350, NW, push in, Iowa Jon.
01B, SS/RS 350, VN, push in, from x66 714.
02B, X33, RS Z28, push in, from Edgemontvllage, original unrestored (see photo included in this discussion).
02D, X33 Z28, NW, push in, from RikerZ28.
02D, X66 L78 SS396 (survivor), NW, bolt in, from Edgemontvillage, Doug Perry's car (see photo included in this discussion).
02D, X66 L78 SS396, NW, push in, from Dave69X33, friend's car.
03E, X33 non-RS Z28, NW, Legends Certified 2023, push in, from Dave69X33, friend's car, original, restored.
03E, X11, NW, push in, from Clete.
04C, model?, plant? push in, from L78 steve.
04C, Z11 L48 Pace Car, VN, push in, from 169INDY.
04C, Z10, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z.
04C, Z11 Pace Car, NW, bolt in, from Dave69X33, friends car, original restored. Note: Same round rubber bolt in style Edgemontvillage showed in the 02D X66 L78 SS survivor.
05A, SS, VN, bolt in, from KevinW.
05A, X33 RS Z28, NW, push in, Dave69x33' car, original restored (see photo included in this discussion).
05A, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Iowa Jon.
05A, X77 Z28, NW, bolt in, from x77-69z28.
05A, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Dusk Blue Z.
05C, Z11 Pace Car, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, friend's car.
05E, X77 Z28, NW, bolt in, from copo.
05E, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, friend's car.
06A, X44, NW bolt in, from copo.
08E, X66 SS396, NW, bush in, from x66 714.
09C, X77 Z28, NW, push in, from Badshifter.
09C. X33 Z28, NW, push in, from john jay 69Z.
09D, X44 427 COPO, NW, push in, from R68 GTO (COPO BE axle).
09D, X77 Z28 JL8, NW, push in, from Dave69x33, friend's car, original restored, owned since 1978.
09D, X77 Z28, NW, bolt-in, from 68camaroZ28, Skip's unrestored survivor.