CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: WaltZ on March 02, 2023, 07:40:38 PM
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Just curious,
is there or was there ever a single carb adapter for the winters crossram?
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Not that I know of. There is for the Edelbrock version.
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Yes, they were talking about one on the Yenko.net site a week or so ago. On a 69 Z owned by Warren Malkin ( may have is last name spelled wrong).
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I found NO mention of it in the book Camaro Untold Secrets
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Warren's car has the fiberglass cross-ram hood with single-carb adapter plate and special air cleaner. Production carb and manifold.
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Warren's car has the fiberglass cross-ram hood with single-carb adapter plate and special air cleaner. Production carb and manifold.
Those have to be ultra rare parts.
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Was nice to see it in 2019
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From my archives, a picture of Pete Estes 68Z Vert sporting the Crossram hood with a single carburetor but the oval crossram air cleaner filter. Not trying to outdo Warrens car, just for comparison.
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I am lucky enough to now own Warren's car. Up till Warren's car I had never seen a snorkleless cowl induction air cleaner or the adapter plate that bolts to the crossram hood. Warren was a special guy.
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So let me see if I have this right.
Warren's car has the fiberglass cross-ram hood with single-carb adapter plate and special air cleaner.
The intake manifold and carb are regular production items for a Z28. It’s not a cross ram intake with a single 4 barrel adapter. Correct?
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Correct.
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I’m intrigued about Warrens car. Did he work for GM? When someone says “they never made one” or “it never got out of the proving grounds”, I stay silent and smirk.
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No. He bought the Z from the orig. owner that was the director of SCCA back then. Warren lived and breathed rare Camaro stuff and was second to none with his knowledge.
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So what is the origin of the hood story? Instead of tossing 500 questions at you, I’ll wait for your reply.
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You Really Need this reference: Page 101 aka 1x4 ADAPTOR PLATE
https://www.bing.com/shop/productpage?q=untold+secrets+camaro&filters=scenario%3a%2217%22+gType%3a%2212%22+gId%3a%22122846174475%22+gIdHash%3a%220%22+gGlobalOfferIds%3a%22122846174475%22+AucContextGuid%3a%220%22+GroupEntityId%3a%22122846174475%22+NonSponsoredOffer%3a%22True%22&productpage=true&FORM=SHPPDP&browse=true
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He added the hood, it is not original.
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You Really Need this reference: Page 101 aka 1x4 ADAPTOR PLATE
https://www.bing.com/shop/productpage?q=untold+secrets+camaro&filters=scenario%3a%2217%22+gType%3a%2212%22+gId%3a%22122846174475%22+gIdHash%3a%220%22+gGlobalOfferIds%3a%22122846174475%22+AucContextGuid%3a%220%22+GroupEntityId%3a%22122846174475%22+NonSponsoredOffer%3a%22True%22&productpage=true&FORM=SHPPDP&browse=true
WOW! That book got EXPENSIVE! Bought mine for $18.
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I see now I wasn't clear. Warren collected the rarest of the rare when it came to 69 Camaro parts. When he became ill Chris White helped him get the car back up and running after he had parked it in the 80's. He added some of the rare parts like that hood, air cleaner, adapter plate, prop rod etc.
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Thanks Kurt.
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You Really Need this reference: Page 101 aka 1x4 ADAPTOR PLATE
https://www.bing.com/shop/productpage?q=untold+secrets+camaro&filters=scenario%3a%2217%22+gType%3a%2212%22+gId%3a%22122846174475%22+gIdHash%3a%220%22+gGlobalOfferIds%3a%22122846174475%22+AucContextGuid%3a%220%22+GroupEntityId%3a%22122846174475%22+NonSponsoredOffer%3a%22True%22&productpage=true&FORM=SHPPDP&browse=true
Just tell us what that book said. I can’t find mine at the moment.
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my Question was "is there or was there ever a single carb adapter for the winters crossram?", but I may not have been clear enough.
I'd like to know it there was a single carb adapter plate to fit on the the winters crossram to change over from duals to a single.
Just Curious :)
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There was no single-carb adapter. The purpose of the cross-ram was to increase [1,200 cfm] fuel-flow over the production 780 cfm carb. There is no reason to believe Chevrolet Engineering even considered it; the SB hemi-head was a clear failure but is listed in the SCCA/FIA homologation documents. A single-carb adapter is not.
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There was no single-carb adapter. The purpose of the cross-ram was to increase [1,200 cfm] fuel-flow over the production 780 cfm carb. There is no reason to believe Chevrolet Engineering even considered it; the SB hemi-head was a clear failure but is listed in the SCCA/FIA homologation documents. A single-carb adapter is not.
That is correct. For 1970, a single 4V carb was 'required' for SCCA Trans Am racing. So, as I believe Chevrolet went back to a single four intake. I'm sure Jon (and others) will chime in to educate us what exact intake was used for 1970. As a side note, the Brand X models had the options of either a 4V, or an 8V tops for competition use.
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would an Offenhauser #5901 single quad top fit and work on a Winters Cross Ram base
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Man, I imagine only someone that tried that would know. Is the bolt pattern similar at all? Next question: why? If you have a crossram, why would you want to run 1x4 on that manifold? Why not just install a single 4bbl manifold that will work properly?
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just thinking outside the box, just curious
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would an Offenhauser #5901 single quad top fit and work on a Winters Cross Ram base
You could just fabricate your own alum top. Very simple to do. OR, you can have a machine shop make one up for you. That said, it might be easier and cheaper to purchase an aftermarket single 4V version like an Offy, or Smokey Ram intake instead.
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Man, I imagine only someone that tried that would know. Is the bolt pattern similar at all? Next question: why? If you have a crossram, why would you want to run 1x4 on that manifold? Why not just install a single 4bbl manifold that will work properly?
The manifold tops are very close, the largest difference being the Offenhauser bolts are 1/4", the Winters intake top is drilled for 5/16" bolts. I still have a couple of Offenhauser gaskets to check with, but unfortunately no Winters to match them up with (sold all of my Offenhausers, had two single four tops at one point in time). That would be the easiest way to check -
Regards,
Steve
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You Really Need this reference: Page 101 aka 1x4 ADAPTOR PLATE
https://www.bing.com/shop/productpage?q=untold+secrets+camaro&filters=scenario%3a%2217%22+gType%3a%2212%22+gId%3a%22122846174475%22+gIdHash%3a%220%22+gGlobalOfferIds%3a%22122846174475%22+AucContextGuid%3a%220%22+GroupEntityId%3a%22122846174475%22+NonSponsoredOffer%3a%22True%22&productpage=true&FORM=SHPPDP&browse=true
Ok I found my book. The 1x4 adapter plate they are talking about is for the HOOD, not the intake.
I stand by my original response to the initial post.
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^Correct, the conversation shifted to the Hood. & the Book contains Nothing related to a ALum single 4BBL lid for the Xram lower intake.
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I believe for 1970, Chevy pulled the plug so to speak for the Trans-Am teams. Penske switched to AMC, and Chevy had no factory (?) sponsored teams. Why spend money on a 'new' single 4V top plate for the Cross-Ram intakes. Independent racers most likely referred back to a legal dual plane single 4V intake. Please chime in to correct me if I'm wrong.
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I doubt that a single 4bbl top was ever considered for crossram manifolds. Why would they? The idea for 2x4 was for more performance not less by substituting a 1x4 on the same manifold. Especially considering they already had a great 1x4 manifold stock on every 302/LT1 engine. For 1970 Chevrolet did in fact limit sponsorship, which is one of the reasons that Penske switched to AMC. If anyone was getting factory help from them in 1970, it might have been Jim Hall.
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Guys,
A slight bit off topic, and I'm sure this has been discussed a million times. Here goes: DID the Winters Cross-Rams come in the trunk when it was a special ordered car? OR was the Cross-Ram an over the counter sale only? Trying to settle a bet. Thanks for the help...
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Guys,
A slight bit off topic, and I'm sure this has been discussed a million times. Here goes: DID the Winters Cross-Rams come in the trunk when it was a special ordered car? OR was the Cross-Ram an over the counter sale only? Trying to settle a bet. Thanks for the help...
Dealer might have put it in the trunk for customer to install, but the factory never did.
They were never original factory production and there was never a cross ram in the assembly plant.
Cross rams were through the dealership or over the counter only.
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A friend that bought one new said it was in the trunk when he picked up the car.
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A friend that bought one new said it was in the trunk when he picked up the car.
Yes there are “stories”.
My dads 68 Z28 supposedly had headers in the trunk when bought near new with low miles. Docs say that never happened with late cars. Probably not done by the factory. Dad thought they were factory, but there is no proof.
It was a very very late car and probably just never sold new because the 69s were available. Came out of Chicago. Possibly Nickey prepped but no proof. It was faster than any other car in the area. Had higher compression when tested by my uncle at a dealership when they were trying to figure out why the engine ran so well. 4.56 rear gear was part of the reason.
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I'm not saying it came from the factory. I am saying he bought a new '68 and it was in the trunk.
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The plenum air cleaner and headers could & did come from the factory in 67 & 68 Z28's. (See option spreadsheet)
No plenum air cleaner, header, or cross-ram came from the factory in 69.
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My guess is that while there were factory parts placed in the trunks or backseats, those stories evolved into other parts that were not available as such. That's bench racing.
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My dad’s car was a very very late car, probably 07E.
I could not find the documentation on when headers were discontinued, so I asked Jerry. According to JM, factory headers were not available after about January 19th of 1968.
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The letter mentions orders in process. Cars built later than January 19 may have been built as ordered to consume inventory.
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I doubt any cars after that date were built.
"will hold these orders pending advice as to their disposition" means tell us if you are changing the order so we can build it or cancelling the order.
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Thanks for your opinion Kurt. I'll stick with mine.
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Why else would Chevrolet hold all these orders? The disposition has to come from the dealers - the dealers placed the orders and that is why that notice went to the dealers. The wording tells me that this came from higher up in the organization - they killed that option and no more were to be built. I'll guess it had to do with the headers not meeting emissions. If they were going to build out the inventory, they wouldn't word it this way.
We have seen other notices that say they aren't accepting more orders, but I don't recall them holding orders. I'll keep my eyes open - I think I have something on this somewhere.
I also went through all the 68 Z's with documentation and the last one we have with plenum or headers was built about 1/10 - none after that though we don't have enough data for that to be conclusive.
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“Hold their orders pending advice” This is very interesting as I’ve read it a few times and gives me some thought and questions.
Do the assembly plants take an inventory of how many cars are currently on the assembly line on both sides of the wall or just the pending orders not yet on the line and send that info back?
If the firewall plenum cutout was completed, (which is the dilemma here), does the car get built or pulled off the assembly line?
When is a car not considered an “order”?
“Pending advice to their disposition” to me means if it already has the prepped area from Fisher, it got the plenum but no headers and nobody got headers on or after Jan 19.
🧐🤨🫣🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
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An order is a piece of paper.....
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If the firewall plenum cutout was completed, (which is the dilemma here), does the car get built or pulled off the assembly line
The Cowl cutout was the responsibility of the dealer or owner, never performed at Fisher or Chevrolet.
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Well then it means no parts leave the assembly line in the trunk.
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Firewall plenum air cleaner cutouts were never done on the assembly line. That was left for the original purchaser to do after delivery. Some paid the dealer to cut and install the air cleaner, some self installed. All factory consumer ordered plenum air cleaner assemblies were supplied in the trunk.
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So the standard air cleaner assembly was installed?
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So the standard air cleaner assembly was installed?
Yes.
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Well then it means no parts leave the assembly line in the trunk.
The rally wheel caps were placed in the trunk.
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We're all hubcaps delivered in the trunk as well?
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In the April 1972 issue of Car Craft, there was an interesting article about Smokey Yunick developing a single carburetor cross-ram intake manifold for use in the 1970 Trans Am series:
https://www.camaros.net/threads/smokey-ram-info-needed.487591/
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In the April 1972 issue of Car Craft, there was an interesting article about Smokey Yunick developing a single carburetor cross-ram intake manifold for use in the 1970 Trans Am series:
https://www.camaros.net/threads/smokey-ram-info-needed.487591/
Mark,
Smokey fixed all of the issues with the Cross-Rams internals to make it work better. Smaller plenum, shorter runners. Also, racers did more modifications (as seen in the article) to achieve even more. I believe IF Chevrolet continued with the factory involvement in Trans-Am racing for 1970, they would have used Smokey's design Cross-Ram. As noted in the article, GM did attach a part number to it. However, it was a little too late by then. The show was over.
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I have the 1970-1974 Camaro FIA docs; no optional manifold is listed.
Chevy still had some involvement; there are HD front brakes, a taller steering knuckle and steel fender flares listed.
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We're all hubcaps delivered in the trunk as well?
If you look in the front of the AIM it lists what was stowed in the luggage compartment. For 67 it's UPC 0 Sheet C1 and 1.5
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Thanks Pete….I forgot it was there. 0C1 for 1968